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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2023 5:20:51 GMT
Imo some very great ideas with fantastic individual scenes (all the stuff with Bill in the hospital, Capaldi's speeches, etc.), but feels like it could have been executed in a much more satisfying way. Didn't care for the Master stuff at all, that should have been put aside so the spotlight could remain on the Cybermen. I enjoy the time dilation idea on paper but it creates issues, as these things do, and honestly I'd prefer a much more straightforward Mondas-based origin story for the Cybermen, something akin to Spare Parts (though that story certainly has issues of its own).
This one generally gets glowing reviews from fans but it's not without its moments of typical Moffatesque clumsiness. What do you think?
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Post by iank on Oct 12, 2023 6:14:25 GMT
Loved part 1 at the time, less so part 2. As you say it's got some great stuff, esp in part 1, and while I do love the Simm Master doing an Ainley he gets little to do in part 2, the lack of any 80s Cybermen is rather glaring and it's not as great as you remember.
Better than any Davies finale, though, obviously.
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Post by burrunjor on Oct 12, 2023 8:49:42 GMT
Well it's certainly a rare good Capaldi episode. However it is sadly not a classic for a few reasons.
1/ Missy. Okay I'm biased but as this character is a literal parody of the Master, made for the worst reasons, political pandering, nepo casting etc, then no story she is in can ever be taken as a serious DW story. She's an utter joke of a character and this is one of her worst appearances. "Dukcta Huuuuuuuuuu". Also this famously has the Doctor justify Missy's killings using the same arguments that villains in the past have used.
Classic Who
Even the Tereliptle knows that's a bullshit argument, so why the f*ck is the Doctor using it to defend a sadistic psychopath that killed his friends like Tegan and Nyssa's families and killed him too? It's like having someone want to be friends with Hitler after the holocaust because they used to play Tennis together after school. Why do horny New Who fans ship the Doctor and the Master? If they have to do that, why not ship the Doctor and the Brig? I mean I'm not saying that was the case obviously, but at least the Brig/Doctor pairing doesn't turn the Doctor into an apologist for genocide. Also there's even an interview where Nick Courtney and Tom Baker joke about the two being gay together LOL.
(BTW for pointing all this out, Anoraks thumbed my comments down into the oblivion, calling them sexist. Again I guess pointing out flaws in a badly written female character is offensive misogyny, but talking about not wanting to f*ck fat chicks is fine.)
2/ The Master in general. I agree the Cybermen should have been the sole focus. Why are New Who writers so scared to give them their own finale? Either the Daleks or the Master have to show up and completely undermine them whenever they do. Also given this is one of four stories where the Cybermen are undermined for the Master then it sadly helps to create an overall image of them being his bitch boys.
From tv tropes about the Cybermen.
Shame when you consider what Terrance Dicks thought of the Cybermen and their creator. I'm amazed more Cybermen fans don't despise the Master LOL.
3/ I also agree with Iank that no 80s Cybermen is annoying. To be fair I don't like the idea of any Cybermen variants bar the Mondasians being in the story. It's supposed to be their origin story? Why bother with the other types If they're accelerating that quickly then why were the more advanced Cyber models not in The Tenth Planet?
I also HATE both New Who variants of Cybermen. The stomp, stomp Cybus Cybermen are like Daleks with legs and the Gaiman Cybermen are terrible in every way. They have little cute faces, can fly and worst of all the way they walk with their sexy little arses wiggling about is f*cking hysterical.
I often call them the Sugababe Cybermen because the bit where they come out of the tombs in Dark Water shaking their hot arses up and down, honestly reminds me of this video.
4/ The water babe. Now I love Pearl Mackie. She even liked a comment of mine going on about how cute she was on insta, showing how she was even cuter than I thought (if that was possible!) However I'm sorry I may be in the minority with this, but I would have left Bill as a Cyberman. I would have had Bill go out as a hero, sacrificing herself before the conditioning takes over. Have it that the conversion wasn't completed mentally, but that slowly her mind will vanish and then have her decide she wants to die as herself and activate the bomb to destroy them, with the Doctor still being caught in the blast. That way you would have done the character justice, given Pearl a memorable exit like Adric (might even be more memorable as not only would it be more gruesome, but Bill was more liked. Sorry Matthew I actually did like you I'm just going by fan wisdom LOL.) And it wouldn't have undermined Cyber conversion or the Cybermen themselves.
Instead however the water babe is a cop out, and it undermines the Cybermen, and while we're at it the Daleks and the Doctor. She can turn a Cyberman back into a human, bring people like the Doctor back to life, and is immune to Dalek fire and can vaporise them in an instant? Why doesn't she just turn all of the Cybermen back and wipe out the Daleks, or better yet turn them back into Kaleds? It makes 0 sense. People say you couldn't have left Bill as a Cyberman because it's too horrible, but sorry if that is true, then don't do it in the first place. Have it happen to a lovable guest character. Have the blue guy who shoots Bill NOT shoot her, take the place of Missy and be converted if you want the process to seem more real and horrible. You can't have your cake and eat it too or else you'll just further undermine the Cybermen.
5/ The regeneration is an awful repeat of I DON'T WANT TO GO and further helps to destroy the Doctor as a character by treating regeneration as a death. I'll give Moffat some leeway as he had to do this to have another Christmas special, but even then, he could have had it that the Doctors about to change, but gets caught up in a crisis like a Dalek invasion and has to put off the regeneration until it is done, as he doesn't want to be out of it during the invasion with the usual post regenerative sickness, but if he keeps putting the regen off he'll die, giving him a time limit to stop the Daleks.
Would have been a better finale for Capaldi than "I DON'T WANT TO GO" on top of shitting on Hartnell from a very great distance.
Sadly all of these things weigh down what yes could have been a classic story, with the horror of Cyber conversion put at the forefront to a greater extent and in a more chilling way than any classic Cyberman story before it.
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Post by rushy on Oct 12, 2023 13:21:28 GMT
I thought it was generally very good, although The Doctor Falls kinda fell back on the old tropes a bit. It's basically a much better directed version of Time of the Doctor. I wasn't keen on much of Capaldi's dialogue being callbacks.
Was very happy to see John Simm again, and I'm glad they gave an explanation for what happened to him after The End of Time (as well as continuing the running gag of him sticking the Doctor in a wheelchair for some reason).
Nardole's ending was great. So was Bill's, save for the puddle lady saving her at the end. Let characters have a morbid ending for once, Moffat, ffs.
Missy had a legitimately great ending too, but she didn't deserve it. There was no build-up to her turning good whatsoever.
Overall, it's a 7/10 from me.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2023 9:01:46 GMT
Loved the first episode at the time, but remember finding the second part a little underwhelming. That's the case with most of the two part Moffat finales actually.
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Post by burrunjor on Nov 13, 2024 9:23:49 GMT
LOL I guess I was right to call the Gaiman variants the Sugababe Cybermen. Even the actors acknowledged it.  |
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Post by megalomaniacal on Nov 14, 2024 22:34:50 GMT
Agree with pretty much all the above.
1. Great set up with mediocre pay off
2. Creative vacuum from writer resulting in Cybermen being overshadowed again
3. That overshadowing being done the Master. Again. But this time two of the f***ers
4. And those two f***ers spend the entire time either baiting the other master or wanting to mas***bate over the other master
5. Nobody dies. Again. Quite liked Bill. I might have cared if she died. But Watergirl... something something
6. Shite comedy in p1 opening. Gomez, go back to Greenwing. AND STAY THERE
You get the idea.
Unlike Moff...
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Post by UncleDeadly on Nov 15, 2024 17:46:38 GMT
Agree with pretty much all the above. 1. Great set up with mediocre pay off 2. Creative vacuum from writer resulting in Cybermen being overshadowed again 3. That overshadowing being done the Master. Again. But this time two of the f***ers 4. And those two f***ers spend the entire time either baiting the other master or wanting to mas***bate over the other master 5. Nobody dies. Again. Quite liked Bill. I might have cared if she died. But Watergirl... something something 6. Shite comedy in p1 opening. Gomez, go back to Greenwing. AND STAY THERE You get the idea. Unlike Moff... Ah; Master-baiting... |
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Post by UncleDeadly on Nov 15, 2024 17:51:38 GMT
LOL I guess I was right to call the Gaiman variants the Sugababe Cybermen. Even the actors acknowledged it. Probably just waiting for someone to drop a couple of quid into the hat. Davies already doing his bit for the unemployment problem. Either that, or appearing as a Gaiman Cyberman at fetes isn't is lucrative as it was a few months back...  |
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Post by megalomaniacal on Nov 15, 2024 22:03:44 GMT
Agree with pretty much all the above. 1. Great set up with mediocre pay off 2. Creative vacuum from writer resulting in Cybermen being overshadowed again 3. That overshadowing being done the Master. Again. But this time two of the f***ers 4. And those two f***ers spend the entire time either baiting the other master or wanting to mas***bate over the other master 5. Nobody dies. Again. Quite liked Bill. I might have cared if she died. But Watergirl... something something 6. Shite comedy in p1 opening. Gomez, go back to Greenwing. AND STAY THERE You get the idea. Unlike Moff... Ah; Master-baiting... Was pleased with that little bit of shenanigans. Probably my "achievement of the decade..." |
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Post by Cherry Pepsi Maxil on Nov 15, 2024 23:47:50 GMT
It isn't that great. Silver Nemesis is the last proper Cyberman story for me. Every story after finds a way of pissing me off.
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