Helping out Big Finish

[rushy]

I feel like a way to make the DW range feel less tired would be if they kicked off a whole new Unbound series.

Basically go back to the original premise of "the Doctor flees Gallifrey to travel" and make everything else new. Don't even have Susan, Barbara or Ian. Just start entirely from scratch with an entirely new incarnation and storyline. Maybe even go 1-2 seasons before featuring the Daleks, or don't use any old monsters whatsoever. Just a "what if Dr Who started now instead of 1963". 

[ClockworkOcean]

I'd love for someone to do that.

Certainly not present-day Big Finish, though.

[burrunjor]

Hang on a minute Rushy? This is what I've been suggesting with my alternate sequel series?

[rushy]

Jun 2, 2023 22:00:41 GMT burrunjor said:

Hang on a minute Rushy? This is what I've been suggesting with my alternate sequel series?

I'm not talking about a sequel to Classic Who that ignores NuWho. As flawed as that series is, I hate the idea of invalidating the work of countless passionate people who put effort into creating the 9th-14th Doctor eras. Not just the writers, but all the performers and the production crews over the years. Even if the end result isn't good, I can't bring myself to say "your work doesn't matter" or "it's not a real sequel". It happened, it's part of the tapestry of Doctor Who and I accept that it's just become a very different show than what it was in the 20th century. My headcanon is very different, but that's just my headcanon. In the real world, Doctor Who is still on air and Hartnell led to Whittaker. 

So what I m talking about is an entirely new audio version of Doctor Who. With a new First Doctor not based on Hartnell, travelling with companions not based on Susan, Ian and Barbara. A complete reinvention. 

[Deleted]

They should just shut it down. Who gives a shit.

[burrunjor]

Jun 3, 2023 4:03:54 GMT rushy said:

Jun 2, 2023 22:00:41 GMT burrunjor said:

Hang on a minute Rushy? This is what I've been suggesting with my alternate sequel series?

I'm not talking about a sequel to Classic Who that ignores NuWho. As flawed as that series is, I hate the idea of invalidating the work of countless passionate people who put effort into creating the 9th-14th Doctor eras. Not just the writers, but all the performers and the production crews over the years. Even if the end result isn't good, I can't bring myself to say "your work doesn't matter" or "it's not a real sequel". It happened, it's part of the tapestry of Doctor Who and I accept that it's just become a very different show than what it was in the 20th century. My headcanon is very different, but that's just my headcanon. In the real world, Doctor Who is still on air and Hartnell led to Whittaker. 

So what I m talking about is an entirely new audio version of Doctor Who. With a new First Doctor not based on Hartnell, travelling with companions not based on Susan, Ian and Barbara. A complete reinvention. 

Sorry Rushy but this demonstrates the problem with RTD's hold over fandom. 

You are not invalidating their work by doing an alternate sequel. It still exists, it can still be canon if you want it.All this would do is give other people another option. That's like saying that Batman Begins invalidates all of the Keaton movies, or that Man of Steel invalidates Reeve. 

Classic Who was a work on it's own. It had a beginning, middle and an end. Whilst it wasn't the work of one team, there was a clear transition throughout its history. Once it all stopped with Survival that was it. 

Anything after was always just going to be a sequel, rather than the same thing. Hence why there are already 3 sequels, Scream of the Shalka, Death Comes to Time and New Who. It's quite funny actually because RTD showed less respect to Scream of the Shalka than I have to his own. I'm happy for there to be a multiverse where mine and RTD's exist as two different universes (along with any other potential alternate sequels that would come after mine, with it being up to you to choose which if any was the same universe as old who.) 

RTD meanwhile outright trashed Richard E Grant making out he was a disaster in the role, that he just took the money, that he was boring and that he would never, EVER have cast him in the role. 

All you are doing with this there can never be another sequel is allowing parasites to launch themselves onto others work. Sorry but that's it. 

By the logic of doing another invalidates it, okay I'll do a revival of Bride's Head Revisited where the cast are revealed to homosexual martians. Afterwards EVERYBODY has to act like that is part of the original, rather than just my revival and if anyone wants to do a proper version, then that's an insult to not follow on from my homosexual Martians idea. 

Similarly I'll revive Buffy and I'll make her a wimp who has to get saved by a string of obnoxious male characters, reveal that there was no such thing as a slayer, that Buffy had actually become a vampire and just didn't know it, and that she's really 96000 years old and that Spike was just a figment of her imagination. Similarly whenever anyone writes about Buffy, they HAVE to include that in any retrospective about the original, IE any article about Spike now has to say "he is a figment of Buffy's imagination" and no one would ever be allowed to maybe do an alternate, more faithful sequel to Buffy.

That's why people get pissed with the Fitzroy Crowd. It's not even just that they do unfaithful versions. They insist on latching their shit onto the original as though it is the same thing, and refuse to let anyone else have a go. Sadly however that feeling it seems has transferred into their fandom of even the possibility of another interpretation is seen as heresy. 

[rushy]

The whole concept of an "alternate sequel" implies that the actual continuation is in some way invalid or inadequate or unwanted. Which is a spit in the face of those who put love and care into it. We can argue about RTD's intentions, but it should be obvious that there's hundreds of people - costume designers, SFX people, guest writers, extras et cetera et cetera who worked hard with the understanding that what they're working on is the Doctor Who legacy, to be appreciated and cherished by those who come after.

That's why all the retconning in Moff and Chibnall's era is so frustrating in the first place, it's invalidating a slew of work that went in before. If I was creatively part of the show, I'd want to be above that and not follow their example by wiping the last few years clean just because it didn't suit my particular tastes.

Either scrap the entire series from 1963 and do an independent reboot, or follow Whittaker.

[rushy]

Maybe this sort of thing could've happened if RTD's era lasted 1-2 seasons and nobody liked it. Ok, then I get it. But it's been 17 years and a whole generation of people associates Doctor Who with Tennant. You can't go back anymore.

[Deleted]

Jun 3, 2023 14:35:21 GMT rushy said:

Maybe this sort of thing could've happened if RTD's era lasted 1-2 seasons and nobody liked it. Ok, then I get it. But it's been 17 years and a whole generation of people associates Doctor Who with Tennant. You can't go back anymore.

This tbh. It's all well and good to be a Classic supremacist but that stance probably takes up less than 0.001% of fandom. The fact is, very few children raised on Classic Who still care enough about the show to rally behind something like this. I'd even go so far as to say that the majority of today's Classic Who enjoyers also enjoy NuWho or actually grew up on NuWho. It's nice to reminisce but you also have to be a realist when you look at these things.

[burrunjor]

Jun 3, 2023 14:51:24 GMT @theyakemperor said:

Jun 3, 2023 14:35:21 GMT rushy said:

Maybe this sort of thing could've happened if RTD's era lasted 1-2 seasons and nobody liked it. Ok, then I get it. But it's been 17 years and a whole generation of people associates Doctor Who with Tennant. You can't go back anymore.

This tbh. It's all well and good to be a Classic supremacist but that stance probably takes up less than 0.001% of fandom. The fact is, very few children raised on Classic Who still care enough about the show to rally behind something like this. I'd even go so far as to say that the majority of today's Classic Who enjoyers also enjoy NuWho or actually grew up on NuWho. It's nice to reminisce but you also have to be a realist when you look at these things.

What a lot of nonsense. (Sorry if I sound like a prized prick but I feel strongly about it.)

Classic Who outperforms New Who on DVD every year. Classic Who lasted 26 years continuously. 

New Who had 7 years of being a mainstream hit and then tanked in the Capaldi era, got a brief spurt in the early Jodie seasons and has been a horrendous failure ever since. 

It also hasn't produced a full series since 2020. Don't use COVID as an excuse meanwhile as other shows that were delayed have since come back full time like Umbrella Academy that has had 2 big budget seasons since, with a third on the way this year. 

In will be 2024, probably later 2024, over 5 years since there was a full season of DW on tv before Cuti has his first full series It's already practically had a hiatus as long as McCoy to McGann. Then there are all the hiatuses in the Capaldi and Jodie eras. It's safe to say New Who has not been a stable, or successful model for the show in the long run at all. If you actually want to win round mainstream audiences, and not the obscure, niche, psycho be kind mob on twitter. The absolute best thing you could do is junk New Who and everything associated with it. Let them know it isn't the same cookie cutter, bland, sjw show it's been since 2014 when most people last watched it. 

I really don't like the way people cow tow to the New Who fans just because they are young, and loud, everybody therefore assumes they have to be the future. 

People forget that they are now the older generation, and honestly it's a double standard from lots of sides of fandom.

When the show comes back in 2005 it's "let's not make it for the fans, let's make it for mainstream audiences by cutting all references to the original."

When I propose the same thing, it is "No, no, no we can't do that, new who is too big a deal." 

Also nobody has mentioned, why was Batman able to junk past continuities? Godzilla? Spider-Man? Sherlock Holmes, but DW isn't? Simply because RTD is too big a bully he'd go f*cking mental if anyone else wanted to have a go?

Face facts. Classic Doctor Who and New Doctor Who are not the same thing. Classic Doctor Who was one work, one production that ran and expanded over 26 years then came to a sudden halt. 

Since then any other attempt to do Doctor Who again would be another version, either a sequel or a remake and not the same production as the original. 

Therefore yes, you can do an alternate sequel to the original work, that still stands on its own. Rushy is trying to make out new who is the same show, and I'm sorry to say by doing that he is allowing these parasites to attach themselves to a healthy host body. 

Like I said if that were the case, fine why not revive Buffy and destroy everything about it and then insist that revival is exactly the same production as the original from 1997-2003 even though it has no one involved and came about years later. 

We have to protect our art, literature and even our folk heroes and fantasy characters from cultural vandals,. Alternate sequel does just that. It protects it not just from the Fitzroy Crowd, but any other potential vandals, including me. Through that formula Classic Who is a work on its own, with YOU free to choose which if any are the true sequel. 

No one reasonable could object to that. Only RTD and his mob who not only want to own the franchise basically forever, but want to smear their shit over the classic era's history. They f*cking thrive on that "HAHAHAHA NOW YOU HAVE TO HAVE OUR DIVERSITY HIRE AS THE FIRST DOCTOR INSTEAD OF HARTNELL< HAHAHAHAHA NOW YOU HAVE TO WRITE THAT DELGADO WAS GAY FOR PERTWEE HAHAHAHAHA." 

All my formula does is stop that from happening, which hey ho, would actually be good for new who and any other alternate who, as that way it would be forced to move on to new stories, rather than rewriting and wallowing in the past. 

[rushy]

7 years of being a mainstream hit is more than most successful shows ever get

[Deleted]

Jun 3, 2023 15:22:36 GMT burrunjor said:

Classic Who outperforms New Who on DVD every year.

New fans watch stuff online. They don't collect DVDs like older guys do. 

[Deleted]

Also btw Burrunjor I mostly agree with what you're saying. My point was mostly about how the sheer popularity of NuWho compared to Classic Who would preclude the notion of scrapping it for a rebooted continuity more in keeping with the sensibilities of old Who.

[Deleted]

Jun 3, 2023 15:25:40 GMT rushy said:

7 years of being a mainstream hit is more than most successful shows ever get

I think I've said this a few times on here now, but yeah; there's always a "peak" period to any show, a period after which it's never the same again. This is one of the reasons I agree with the notion that NuWho and Classic Who are different shows; both had veritable "peak" years—for Classic it was the Baker years (though it breaks the formula a little, considering the Hartnell years could also be counted as a peak, though not nearly as impactful on pop culture as the Baker years), and for NuWho it was the Tennant years and, to a lesser extent, the Smith years (people forget just how popular the show was during the RTD era, much more so compared even to early Moffat). Perhaps there'll be a "little Renaissance" in the vein of the short-lived McCoy era, but I reckon we've got a bit more sludge to wade through yet, at least if we hold Series 13 to be the NuWho equivalent of Trial. 

[Brian MK.II]

I sent an script to them once. McGann's Doctor wakes up in 1969 and not only has no memory of who he is but finds himself holed up in a grim London flat with the Shalka Doctor, having turned to alcohol after seeing his alternate future as a spunk haired tosser.

I ended up getting a letter from some clown called Bruce Robinson saying ''See you in court.''  Dunno what his problem his?...