Saward praise

[Deleted]

Found this great positive review of Season 22 in which the author defends Saward while praising the season as a whole. Worth a read.

omnibus.home.blog/2022/08/07/a-panacea-for-the-cares-of-mind-doctor-who-season-22-blu-ray-review/

"There’s an awful lot of nonsense written about Season 22 of Doctor Who, a lot of it aimed in the direction of script editor Eric Saward. Why so much poison towards the script editor?"

"most of the widespread dislike of Revelation is based on the fact that it was written by Eric Saward and that particular gentleman is the bête noire of trendy fandom right now. Sorry, Saward-haters, but you’re cutting off your nose to spite your face; this is a great story!"

[burrunjor]

I didn't think that Revelation was hated? It's usually well regarded in most things I've seen.

I think season 22 is honestly as good as Tom Baker's first season.

Tom's first season has got two shit stories, Robot and Revenge, three classics, Ark, Sontaran, Genesis. (To be clear this is not my opinion, I'm talking about general fandoms here. Personally I do rate Genesis as a classic, Ark and Sontaran as great stories, Revenge as okay and Robot as shit.)

Colin's first season meanwhile has. Vengeance and Revelation as two all time classics, Two Doctors and Mark as great stories, and Attack and Timelash as poor (again that's general fandoms opinion. I disagree with that in that I would rate Attack as a great story too.)

Yet people always gloss over the faults with Tom's first season, and highlight any problems with Colin's as proof that's why the show was axed? Even when they are the same problem. Clever Dick Films for instance said that Colin making a joke about the guys falling in acid was awful and out of character. Tom does exactly the same thing to the Cyberman he kills in Revenge with the Cybermat!

To me it's just because Colin's first season was the one before the cancellation, but again you'd think fans would know why it was cancelled and not just swallow the BBC propaganda, but there you go.

[Deleted]

Apr 10, 2023 10:55:33 GMT burrunjor said:

I didn't think that Revelation was hated? It's usually well regarded in most things I've seen.

I think season 22 is honestly as good as Tom Baker's first season.

Tom's first season has got two shit stories, Robot and Revenge, three classics, Ark, Sontaran, Genesis. (To be clear this is not my opinion, I'm talking about general fandoms here. Personally I do rate Genesis as a classic, Ark and Sontaran as great stories, Revenge as okay and Robot as shit.)

Colin's first season meanwhile has. Vengeance and Revelation as two all time classics, Two Doctors and Mark as great stories, and Attack and Timelash as poor (again that's general fandoms opinion. I disagree with that in that I would rate Attack as a great story too.)

Yet people always gloss over the faults with Tom's first season, and highlight any problems with Colin's as proof that's why the show was axed? Even when they are the same problem. Clever Dick Films for instance said that Colin making a joke about the guys falling in acid was awful and out of character. Tom does exactly the same thing to the Cyberman he kills in Revenge with the Cybermat!

To me it's just because Colin's first season was the one before the cancellation, but again you'd think fans would know why it was cancelled and not just swallow the BBC propaganda, but there you go.

I've seen and heard some dislike for Revelation myself. A podcast I used to listen to were quite hard on it and even the IMDB rating for the story is good but criminally underrated compared to other "classics" (7.5 for P1, 7.8 for P2. Should be in the 8s at least). It was ranked 70th in the 2014 DWM poll while Varos came in almost 60 places after it so Season 22 is clearly not loved by the majority.  I like the last two stories of Season 12, but the rest of it is very dodgy. I'm not sure how Sontaran is considered a classic by fans. It's just so flat and cheap and lacks none of what made Time Warrior so good. Season 22 is definitely a better season although not a particular favourite of mine anymore. There's only one true dud in the season though and that's Timelash. The rest are watchable at the very least.

[burrunjor]

Apr 10, 2023 11:02:04 GMT @kengrubshaw said:

Apr 10, 2023 10:55:33 GMT burrunjor said:

I didn't think that Revelation was hated? It's usually well regarded in most things I've seen.

I think season 22 is honestly as good as Tom Baker's first season.

Tom's first season has got two shit stories, Robot and Revenge, three classics, Ark, Sontaran, Genesis. (To be clear this is not my opinion, I'm talking about general fandoms here. Personally I do rate Genesis as a classic, Ark and Sontaran as great stories, Revenge as okay and Robot as shit.)

Colin's first season meanwhile has. Vengeance and Revelation as two all time classics, Two Doctors and Mark as great stories, and Attack and Timelash as poor (again that's general fandoms opinion. I disagree with that in that I would rate Attack as a great story too.)

Yet people always gloss over the faults with Tom's first season, and highlight any problems with Colin's as proof that's why the show was axed? Even when they are the same problem. Clever Dick Films for instance said that Colin making a joke about the guys falling in acid was awful and out of character. Tom does exactly the same thing to the Cyberman he kills in Revenge with the Cybermat!

To me it's just because Colin's first season was the one before the cancellation, but again you'd think fans would know why it was cancelled and not just swallow the BBC propaganda, but there you go.

I've seen and heard some dislike for Revelation myself. A podcast I used to listen to were quite hard on it and even the IMDB rating for the story is good but criminally underrated compared to other "classics" (7.5 for P1, 7.8 for P2. Should be in the 8s at least). It was ranked 70th in the 2014 DWM poll while Varos came in almost 60 places after it so Season 22 is clearly not loved by the majority.  I like the last two stories of Season 12, but the rest of it is very dodgy. I'm not sure how Sontaran is considered a classic by fans. It's just so flat and cheap and lacks none of what made Time Warrior so good. Season 22 is definitely a better season although not a particular favourite of mine anymore. There's only one true dud in the season though and that's Timelash. The rest are watchable at the very least.

Hmm must be a more recent thing. 

In the 40th poll, taken before New Who, Revelation was ranked the 11th greatest story of all time by the fans, being the third Dalek story in the top 20 after Genesis and Remembrance. 

The Two Doctors meanwhile is one that ironically for all the praise that goes to Robert Holmes, is good for reasons beyond his script. The beautiful location, and the excellent performances, (particularly from the guy who plays Shockeye and Jacqueline Pearce who is f*cking amazing as always) and the central concept (which I suppose I have to give him credit for) all work and help elevate it above its problems, but when you look at the script, it's really sloppily done. 

The plot hole of Troughton having something that Colin doesn't know is so stupid, even as a child I knew it was bad. The retcon of Troughton working with the Time Lords is completely nonsensical. Also the Sontarans are appallingly used, and some scenes are just nasty for the sake of it like Oscars death. I do love Shockeye's death though. That was a brilliant moment for Colin's Doctor. 

Of course don't get me wrong, I do think Bob Holmes was a brilliant writer overall, who wrote the best stories, but I can't stand the way the official fandom worships him to the point where everything he does must be considered gold. (Though even then they often straight up lie about his stories and what he actually intended to back up their shit, like TV Tropes saying that he invented gender bending time lords.) 

Still he did make mistakes and if there is anything wrong with the Two Doctors, it was the script. Typically though, fandom blames JNT for insisting the story be shot in Spain. FFS if the setting had no importance to the story, that was still Bob Holmes fault for not working it into the story. 

Ironically I think that the Two Doctors shows why JNT was actually right sometimes to want to look for new writers, than just rely on the old hands. The story they were originally going to do, The First Sontarans, which was adapted for audio and was written by a new writer, is f*cking amazing. It is so much better in every way than the Two Doctors, and had it been made, honestly I think Colin's first season, even with the cancellation would be regarded as one of the best as that would be three classic stories. It also makes the Sontarans far more menacing and effective and interesting than even the Time Warrior! 

Sadly however they went with Bob Holmes script simply because he was the old established one, showing you that sometimes it really is better to move on. 

[Deleted]

Apr 10, 2023 11:19:01 GMT burrunjor said:

Apr 10, 2023 11:02:04 GMT @kengrubshaw said:

I've seen and heard some dislike for Revelation myself. A podcast I used to listen to were quite hard on it and even the IMDB rating for the story is good but criminally underrated compared to other "classics" (7.5 for P1, 7.8 for P2. Should be in the 8s at least). It was ranked 70th in the 2014 DWM poll while Varos came in almost 60 places after it so Season 22 is clearly not loved by the majority.  I like the last two stories of Season 12, but the rest of it is very dodgy. I'm not sure how Sontaran is considered a classic by fans. It's just so flat and cheap and lacks none of what made Time Warrior so good. Season 22 is definitely a better season although not a particular favourite of mine anymore. There's only one true dud in the season though and that's Timelash. The rest are watchable at the very least.

Hmm must be a more recent thing. 

In the 40th poll, taken before New Who, Revelation was ranked the 11th greatest story of all time by the fans, being the third Dalek story in the top 20 after Genesis and Remembrance. 

The Two Doctors meanwhile is one that ironically for all the praise that goes to Robert Holmes, is good for reasons beyond his script. The beautiful location, and the excellent performances, (particularly from the guy who plays Shockeye and Jacqueline Pearce who is f*cking amazing as always) and the central concept (which I suppose I have to give him credit for) all work and help elevate it above its problems, but when you look at the script, it's really sloppily done. 

The plot hole of Troughton having something that Colin doesn't know is so stupid, even as a child I knew it was bad. The retcon of Troughton working with the Time Lords is completely nonsensical. Also the Sontarans are appallingly used, and some scenes are just nasty for the sake of it like Oscars death. I do love Shockeye's death though. That was a brilliant moment for Colin's Doctor. 

Of course don't get me wrong, I do think Bob Holmes was a brilliant writer overall, who wrote the best stories, but I can't stand the way the official fandom worships him to the point where everything he does must be considered gold. (Though even then they often straight up lie about his stories and what he actually intended to back up their shit, like TV Tropes saying that he invented gender bending time lords.) 

Still he did make mistakes and if there is anything wrong with the Two Doctors, it was the script. Typically though, fandom blames JNT for insisting the story be shot in Spain. FFS if the setting had no importance to the story, that was still Bob Holmes fault for not working it into the story. 

Ironically I think that the Two Doctors shows why JNT was actually right sometimes to want to look for new writers, than just rely on the old hands. The story they were originally going to do, The First Sontarans, which was adapted for audio and was written by a new writer, is f*cking amazing. It is so much better in every way than the Two Doctors, and had it been made, honestly I think Colin's first season, even with the cancellation would be regarded as one of the best as that would be three classic stories. It also makes the Sontarans far more menacing and effective and interesting than even the Time Warrior! 

Sadly however they went with Bob Holmes script simply because he was the old established one, showing you that sometimes it really is better to move on. 

WOW, 11th. That's quite impressive actually. What about Fenric and Remembrance? I can't find the results of the poll.

[rushy]

he was dum dum

this is as erudite as i can get in my position of being skunky drunk

[iank]

Not as dum dum as RTD.

[burrunjor]

Apr 10, 2023 20:42:16 GMT @kengrubshaw said:

Apr 10, 2023 11:19:01 GMT burrunjor said:

Hmm must be a more recent thing. 

In the 40th poll, taken before New Who, Revelation was ranked the 11th greatest story of all time by the fans, being the third Dalek story in the top 20 after Genesis and Remembrance. 

The Two Doctors meanwhile is one that ironically for all the praise that goes to Robert Holmes, is good for reasons beyond his script. The beautiful location, and the excellent performances, (particularly from the guy who plays Shockeye and Jacqueline Pearce who is f*cking amazing as always) and the central concept (which I suppose I have to give him credit for) all work and help elevate it above its problems, but when you look at the script, it's really sloppily done. 

The plot hole of Troughton having something that Colin doesn't know is so stupid, even as a child I knew it was bad. The retcon of Troughton working with the Time Lords is completely nonsensical. Also the Sontarans are appallingly used, and some scenes are just nasty for the sake of it like Oscars death. I do love Shockeye's death though. That was a brilliant moment for Colin's Doctor. 

Of course don't get me wrong, I do think Bob Holmes was a brilliant writer overall, who wrote the best stories, but I can't stand the way the official fandom worships him to the point where everything he does must be considered gold. (Though even then they often straight up lie about his stories and what he actually intended to back up their shit, like TV Tropes saying that he invented gender bending time lords.) 

Still he did make mistakes and if there is anything wrong with the Two Doctors, it was the script. Typically though, fandom blames JNT for insisting the story be shot in Spain. FFS if the setting had no importance to the story, that was still Bob Holmes fault for not working it into the story. 

Ironically I think that the Two Doctors shows why JNT was actually right sometimes to want to look for new writers, than just rely on the old hands. The story they were originally going to do, The First Sontarans, which was adapted for audio and was written by a new writer, is f*cking amazing. It is so much better in every way than the Two Doctors, and had it been made, honestly I think Colin's first season, even with the cancellation would be regarded as one of the best as that would be three classic stories. It also makes the Sontarans far more menacing and effective and interesting than even the Time Warrior! 

Sadly however they went with Bob Holmes script simply because he was the old established one, showing you that sometimes it really is better to move on. 

WOW, 11th. That's quite impressive actually. What about Fenric and Remembrance? I can't find the results of the poll.

I'm sorry but I can't remember, try DW magazine 40th anniversary nov 2003, that's where it was kept.  I know both stories were in the top 10. McCoy had the most after Tom. It was 5 Tom's, one Davison, one Troughton, one Pertwee (Inferno) and two McCoys. 

The reviews were all shit btw. They written by Fitzroy twonks who seemed to complain about the show more than praise it. I remember the review for Tomb which I think was by Paul Cornell bitching about how racist it was, and how it was so shit compared to what they thought it would be. Robert Shearman said about Inferno that it was of the few times DW was actually a smart show etc. I remember thinking at the time "who the f*ck needs haters when you've got dicks like this as the fans."

Of course had I known then what I do now, I wouldn't have been surprised.  

[Deleted]

Apr 10, 2023 10:55:33 GMT burrunjor said:

Tom's first season has got two shit stories, Robot and Revenge, three classics, Ark, Sontaran, Genesis. (To be clear this is not my opinion, I'm talking about general fandoms here. Personally I do rate Genesis as a classic, Ark and Sontaran as great stories, Revenge as okay and Robot as shit.)

I often wonder about Robot. It seems like the ultimate cookie-cutter story, even down to the title just being "Robot". Were they taking the piss with that or what?

[Deleted]

I used to dislike Varos, but I really appreciate it now. I actually consider it the best written story of the era although not the best in terms of execution. What frustrates me about Season 22 is that half of the stories are very well directed and the other half have average to poor direction. Attack, Rani and Revelation are all made to a very high standard, but the direction for Varos and The Two Doctors can be very workmanlike at times though there's some flashes of brilliance here and there.