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Post by Brian MK.II on Mar 28, 2023 1:06:51 GMT
1: Orbit
2: Duel
3: Blake
4: Pressure Point
5: Cygnus Alpha
6: City At The Edge Of The World
7: Star One
8: Headhunter
9: The Way Back
10: The Web
As for ranking the series
1: Series B
2: Series A
3: Series D (2nd Halve)
4: Series C
5: Series D (1st Halve)
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Post by burrunjor on Mar 28, 2023 15:35:43 GMT
No, there is nothing in the episode that suggests gender fluidity. Watched it again today. Still holds up as a masterpiece IMO, but there obviously weren't any references to the alien having been a man, and in the burial scene at the start it's hard to make out what the gender of the body they were preparing was. You only see a hand that could have been a woman or a man (I assume that it was just Jan Chappell?) I was more wondering if maybe there was a reference in Tanith Lee's original script or something. Even just the directions like they all gathered around the kings body at the start or something? It does feel like a weird thing to just pluck out of nowhere, unlike saying Bob Holmes brought in gender bending time lords which has an obvious agenda to it. As for the episode itself, aside from how great it is, in hindsight I think Avon should have taken it up on its offer. To start with being its sex slave for the rest of your life isn't a bad offer at all LOL, and second of all considering what would happen to all of them, well they'd ironically have been safer going with the alien. Even Cally technically would have lived longer as part of the alien, whilst Tarrant, Dayna, Vila and even most likely Avon would have lived more than a year. It's a shame that Jan Chappell left as I really would have liked to have seen where the Avon Cally relationship would have gone. Anyone know why she left? It feels weird that she would considering series C was undoubtedly her best. Right on the trot we had two episodes that not only made her the focus, but where she got to play two roles? Then there is also the fact that she could have been the love interest of the lead character? |
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Post by burrunjor on Mar 28, 2023 15:44:01 GMT
1: Orbit 2: Duel 3: Blake 4: Pressure Point 5: Cygnus Alpha 6: City At The Edge Of The World 7: Star One 8: Headhunter 9: The Way Back 10: The Web As for ranking the series 1: Series B 2: Series A 3: Series D (2nd Halve) 4: Series C 5: Series D (1st Halve) If I was going to rank the series I guess it would be. Series A (Even though Avon is my fave, I much prefer Blake as the leader overall and the original seven are probably the best.) Series C (Even though it's aimless and has an absolute shit fest with Harvest of Kairos, I think its classic episodes like Sarcophagus, Children of Auron, Rumours of Death, City on the Edge of Forever, Aftermath, etc all help beef up its average over series B. Also I think this is perhaps where the show really got its reputation for being brutal and dark. Whilst series B did kill off Gan, this series has the characters go through absolute hell, like Children of Auron, and ends with them basically losing. A grim foreshadowing of what's to come.) Series B (Again can't top the original seven and the Star One story arc and Travis going mental are among the best they ever did in the show.) Series D (Like I said, highest number of duds, Soolin isn't really given much to do, or time to develop, Cally's death is badly underplayed, though I understand they had no choice. Still some all time classics, an interesting chance of location and pace, and one of the greatest finale's stop it from being a bad season, it just falls short of the other three.) |
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Post by rushy on Mar 28, 2023 22:41:03 GMT
It's a shame that Jan Chappell left as I really would have liked to have seen where the Avon Cally relationship would have gone. Anyone know why she left? It feels weird that she would considering series C was undoubtedly her best. Right on the trot we had two episodes that not only made her the focus, but where she got to play two roles? Then there is also the fact that she could have been the love interest of the lead character? Legend has it that she saw the spider thing in Harvest of Kairos and quit on the same day. If I was going to rank the series I guess it would be. Series C (Even though it's aimless and has an absolute shit fest with Harvest of Kairos, I think its classic episodes like Sarcophagus, Children of Auron, Rumours of Death, City on the Edge of Forever, Aftermath, etc all help beef up its average over series B. Also I think this is perhaps where the show really got its reputation for being brutal and dark. Whilst series B did kill off Gan, this series has the characters go through absolute hell, like Children of Auron, and ends with them basically losing. A grim foreshadowing of what's to come.) I disagree with this. Children, Rumours and Terminal are rough episodes, yes, but I'd say the show's tone was at its lightest in Series C, given the lack of an arc and also the close family dynamic that evolved within the crew (with Avon and Cally as parents, Tarrant as the teen with a chip on his shoulder, and Vila and Dayna as younger kids). When Cally dies and nobody really reacts, that's when shit really gets real. Avon murdering Dr Plaxton. Avon hunting Vila. Vila repeatedly suggesting they abandon Tarrant. Casual blackmail, death threats to anyone who came aboard. The Series D crew were more pirates than freedom fighters, and only stuck together because they had nothing else. That's why their mission to find Blake carries so much weight, he's basically the last glimmer of hope. Avon seeing him as a traitor is the moment of realization that he - Avon - was right all along and Blake wasn't. That's what causes him to snap. He wanted Blake to be right. |
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Post by burrunjor on Mar 29, 2023 13:21:23 GMT
It's a shame that Jan Chappell left as I really would have liked to have seen where the Avon Cally relationship would have gone. Anyone know why she left? It feels weird that she would considering series C was undoubtedly her best. Right on the trot we had two episodes that not only made her the focus, but where she got to play two roles? Then there is also the fact that she could have been the love interest of the lead character? Legend has it that she saw the spider thing in Harvest of Kairos and quit on the same day. If I was going to rank the series I guess it would be. Series C (Even though it's aimless and has an absolute shit fest with Harvest of Kairos, I think its classic episodes like Sarcophagus, Children of Auron, Rumours of Death, City on the Edge of Forever, Aftermath, etc all help beef up its average over series B. Also I think this is perhaps where the show really got its reputation for being brutal and dark. Whilst series B did kill off Gan, this series has the characters go through absolute hell, like Children of Auron, and ends with them basically losing. A grim foreshadowing of what's to come.) I disagree with this. Children, Rumours and Terminal are rough episodes, yes, but I'd say the show's tone was at its lightest in Series C, given the lack of an arc and also the close family dynamic that evolved within the crew (with Avon and Cally as parents, Tarrant as the teen with a chip on his shoulder, and Vila and Dayna as younger kids). When Cally dies and nobody really reacts, that's when shit really gets real. Avon murdering Dr Plaxton. Avon hunting Vila. Vila repeatedly suggesting they abandon Tarrant. Casual blackmail, death threats to anyone who came aboard. The Series D crew were more pirates than freedom fighters, and only stuck together because they had nothing else. That's why their mission to find Blake carries so much weight, he's basically the last glimmer of hope. Avon seeing him as a traitor is the moment of realization that he - Avon - was right all along and Blake wasn't. That's what causes him to snap. He wanted Blake to be right. I wouldn't blame her for that. I'd be pissed too if I saw that. I hear though Jan Chappell looks really beautiful when she's angry. I would completely agree with your analysis that series D is the darkest, I just meant that series C kind of sets the ball running in terms of making B7 the darkest genre show, as it has them lose more often. From the start B7 was always willing to push the boundaries a bit more, with things like Blake being framed as a child molester, but still I think in terms of tone you can see it like this. Series A, is good old fashioned, Terry Nation, Boys own adventure, Dan Dareesque fun in space. Yes it's a bit more serious, and can get dark, but our good guys win and save the day and that's that. Series B meanwhile turns things up a bit by having Gan die, but still ends with our characters being heroes and saving humanity from monsters and prior to that they do put a dent in the federation throughout the series enough so you think they have a chance of winning. IE they outwit and humiliate Travis again and again, even Servalan is put on a sticky wicket thanks to them, they expose that control isn't on earth, they find Star One etc. Series C however they just keep losing like Children of Auron, Dayna's father, Tarrant's brother, Anna Grant, etc, and the end sees them marooned on a desolate planet having been completely outwitted, and saved by the skin of their teeth. It's not hard to see how after that series they were able to just run with that theme and take it to its inevitable conclusion with Blake. To me it would have been too big a jump to go from them saving the earth to all dying. It's funny though because I never thought of them as being a family in series C but I can maybe see it a bit now LOL. |
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Post by rushy on Mar 29, 2023 13:24:34 GMT
The shift in the series is refined a lot more in the audios, where you have Grant basically grooming Avon into a freedom fighter and a lot more introspective stories where his mixed feelings about Blake's absence become apparent.
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Post by burrunjor on Apr 1, 2023 11:57:03 GMT
What would you c*nts say are the best and worst acting performances in B7 (I thought I'd just put this here rather than start another thread, although maybe we could have a section for B7? Since most of us are fans, as indeed are most DW fans in general, and they are now confirmed at least officially to be part of the same universe.)
I'm going to say the best performances overall were obviously Avon and Servalan. Both of those actors had just so much personality the screen almost couldn't contain them. Both also made those characters who Terry Nation himself even said he wrote as quite bland characters.
Meanwhile the best individual acting performances I'd say are.
Jan Chappell in Sarcophagus. You may have guessed but I am a big fan boy of this episode and her character in it haha. She's creepy, arrogant, sexy, menacing and pitiful all at the same time in this episode. The end bit where she pleads is possibly the best performance in the series and actually makes you feel sorry for the alien that just tried to kill all of the main cast a few mins earlier.
Gareth Thomas in Blake. Whilst he was always excellent obviously, his performance as the grittier, shadier Blake was probably his finest moment in the show. I loved the way he was actually able to dupe us into thinking that Blake had become a bad guy, Blake of all people. However at the end when we learned the truth, hilariously we saw the problem was that Blake was the same as before, IE arrogant, prone to playing mind games with his followers like he did in Trial, only this time it blows up literally in his face.
Brian Croucher in Trial. Most people it seems prefer Travis 1, though personally I liked the character overall and thought his story arc from loyal Federation officer to traitor is one of the best. Still this episode was him at his peak, and I loved the way Brian played it. A combination of understated despair and anger, making his later betrayal all the more believable. I loved his final speech, because it was actually true! The federation DO ramp their soldiers up into being vicious killers and the only reason they stabbed him in the back, was because he was more honest to the general public about it.
Jacqueline Pearce in Aftermath and Pressure Point. Both episodes make Servalan so hateful. From gunning down Hal, to even just her anger at Travis daring to hesitate. I just love the anger Jacqueline Pearce shows in that moment where she almost hits him! Considering I know first hand what a lovely, charming woman Jacqueline Pearce is, her performance in this is all the better for me now.
Paul Darrow in Orbit. It's hard to pick out just one for him, but I think this episode is the most outrageous. The idea that they could have a lead character do something like that and actually get away with it, is incredible, but Paul is the one who makes it hang together, managing to be both hateful and hilarious at the same time. "You know you are safe with me!"
John Savident in Orbit: Egrorian is one of the best characters in the show, and a large part of it is down to his wonderfully over the top performance. I just love how creepy he is, and that horrible little laugh he does LOL. It really adds to the black comedy of the episode.
Worst performances.
The cancer lady in Assassin: I feel bad at singling her out here as lots of people have trashed her in this, but sorry her acting is dreadful. Both during the wimpy cover and when she reveals herself. Her death acting is unintentional comedy gold as well.
Brian Croucher in Voices from the Past: Whilst he was great when he had the material, he is f*cking awful here. To be fair I'm not sure any actor could have pulled off being covered in bandages like that.? Still the "DO YOU NOT THINK I WOULD HAVE SMELLED YOU OWWWWT" delivery borders on Tommy Wiseau levels of acting.
Dayna in her death scene. She's fine for the rest of the episode, but the expression she makes when she is shot. To be fair I don't know if it was just her, or they slow mowed on a bad bit, but either way her expression just looks so stupid its the only badly done bit in the entire episode.
The sexist guy in Harvest of Kairos. Again he is given some awful lines, but overall I find his performance cringy. He stands like he has shat his pants most of the time.
Bruce Purchase in The Keeper: He's entertaining. I'll give him that, but sorry I think he overdoes it here to the point where unlike Egrorian, it actually undermines the drama, like the fight he has with his brother. The stupid noises they make in the fight with the tongues out still makes me laugh. Hell even writing about it now I'm laughing.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2023 12:00:45 GMT
The best for me is Pacey. Terrific actor and honestly my favourite character in the show. He is a bit of a bully in Series 3, but I like his back and forth with Avon. He's quite likeable if somewhat flawed in Series 4. You could say he gets everyone killed, but it's partly Blake's fault as well. I'm sad Pacey was never in DW.
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Post by burrunjor on Apr 1, 2023 12:11:16 GMT
The best for me is Pacey. Terrific actor and honestly my favourite character in the show. He is a bit of a bully in Series 3, but I like his back and forth with Avon. He's quite likeable if somewhat flawed in Series 4. You could say he gets everyone killed, but it's partly Blake's fault as well. I'm sad Pacey was never in DW. It's 100 percent Blake's fault that they all got killed. Well maybe partly Avon's fault for taking them there, but the lion's share goes to Blake. I wouldn't blame Tarrant at all. Dayna can maybe also take some of the responsibility for grabbing the gun (Which was really stupid when Arleen was standing RIGHT IN FRONT OF HER WITH A LOADED GUN!). Had Dayna not done that, then maybe a shoot out wouldn't have occurred and they'd have been taken prisoner instead, and could have escaped again like Blake did in the first place? Still like I said, Blake's stupid little mind games were going to get someone killed eventually, and what's hilarious is that he was such an idiot his fool proof tests to see if someone was loyal, managed to turn Tarrant, a guy who has been fighting the Federation for years against him, whilst at the same time, allowed an actual, dedicated Federation officer to slip through the net! Tarrant meanwhile I don't mind as a character. He was intended to be a bit of a prick, and he played that well, and he had some brilliant episodes, like Deathwatch, and Sand. I will say though I think he changed a bit after his first episode. In his first episode he is a badass, ruthless, stone cold killer, who has no problem with shooting people in the back. Ultimately I think they were maybe grooming him to be a replacement for Avon, as they wanted Avon to become more heroic initially. Thankfully Paul Darrow put a foot down on that, and so Tarrant became a replacement for Blake. Notice he has a problem with shooting an android in the back in Deathwatch, compared to stabbing a human in the back in his first appearance. Still I think by keeping up the bullying, nastier side they made him more than just Blake mark 2 and added a little bit of nuance to the character. I will say though that there are some nice Vila/Tarrant moments. Everyone thinks he bullied Vila all the time, but that only really happened in two episodes. Other times he went out of his way to try and rescue Vila's corpse, and in Blake, Vila seems more worried about Tarrant than the others, (Clearly thinking Avon killed him like he wanted to do to Vila in Orbit.) |
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Post by rushy on Apr 1, 2023 13:41:56 GMT
Darrow usually gets the limelight, but I think Thomas's contributions to the show (not just in the finale) cannot be overstated. I wouldn't have watched it past the first episode if it wasn't for his performance. He brought a sincerity to the table that perfectly balanced Avon's neverending display of irony.
And there's not many lead characters who still feel vital to the show's development two seasons after they've disappeared. Everything Avon is and does is influenced in some way by what Blake meant to him.
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Post by burrunjor on Apr 1, 2023 13:52:01 GMT
Darrow usually gets the limelight, but I think Thomas's contributions to the show (not just in the finale) cannot be overstated. I wouldn't have watched it past the first episode if it wasn't for his performance. He brought a sincerity to the table that perfectly balanced Avon's neverending display of irony. And there's not many lead characters who still feel vital to the show's development two seasons after they've disappeared. Everything Avon is and does is influenced in some way by what Blake meant to him. Yes Gareth was excellent all the way through. I prefer the Blake years in all honesty, as I think Blake was a better lead. Avon was still my fave character, and in all fairness the best individual episodes may come from the Avon years, but overall I like the direction and the original seven better in the Blake years. I just always wondered why Gareth left the show? I know a lot of people say it's because of his pretentious actor friends, bullied him basically into not being in a silly sci fi series instead of real acting. Both Chris Boucher and Jacqueline Pearce said as such. Still whilst I can believe that, ironically Gareth ended up becoming one of the best ambassadors for the show. Really he, Jacqueline and Paul were the three who always spoke about it fondly, did interviews for it, promoted it. It's hard to get any Steven Pacey interviews, Josette Simon disowned it (maybe she was that embarrassed by that death scene LOL.) Added to that he was the one who wanted a crossover with DW more than anyone else, so he didn't seem like the snobby sort. (Not that that would have made him a bad guy or anything just to be clear, as everyone seemed to like him, fans co-stars regardless.) I guess he maybe came round to genre in his later years? He did some other genre work too, like playing the down to earth landlord who turns out to be the ruler of an evil Demon cult in the Randall and Hopkirk remake LOL. That was a fun performance from him. |
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Post by rushy on Apr 1, 2023 14:08:27 GMT
I just always wondered why Gareth left the show? I know a lot of people say it's because of his pretentious actor friends, bullied him basically into not being in a silly sci fi series instead of real acting. Both Chris Boucher and Jacqueline Pearce said as such. Still whilst I can believe that, ironically Gareth ended up becoming one of the best ambassadors for the show. Really he, Jacqueline and Paul were the three who always spoke about it fondly, did interviews for it, promoted it. It's hard to get any Steven Pacey interviews, Josette Simon disowned it (maybe she was that embarrassed by that death scene LOL.) I've heard a few reasons. One being that he wanted to direct episodes, but wasn't allowed to for whatever reason. He also complained in an interview that the tone of Series B was less gritty and dramatic than Series A, and he worried about the show becoming more about sci-fi fantasy hijinks than the dystopian drama that he probably expected it to be from those early episodes. He was basically like Eccleston without the behind-the-scenes drama. Acted professional, did his job and is happy people still like it, but the series was not something he was personally very invested in. Once his contract was up, he simply moved on. I think Darrow became much more attached to it because it's the closest he got to being a proper movie star, which was his ambition. |
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Post by rushy on Apr 1, 2023 14:12:10 GMT
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Post by burrunjor on Apr 25, 2023 11:56:42 GMT
Looking at some behind the scenes stuff, I wonder if Jacqueline Pearce and Paul Darrow were having an affair, or the beginnings of one. Not trying to blacken their names of course. It's not like they killed anyone, I mean these things do happen, but still there are some odd things about their relationship.
The second Avon, Servalan kiss was apparently improvised on the part of Paul Darrow. The take we see is the first one. Now fair enough actors are known to toss things in, but still in this case, for him to be confident enough to know she wouldn't object to being kissed like that, well they'd have to be very comfortable in each others presence at least.
Also Jacqueline Pearce always seem to single Paul Darrow out as her favourite, despite the fact that they seemingly didn't keep in touch after it? She kept in touch with others like Jan Chappell and I believe Stephen Grief but not Paul, yet he's her mvp? Then there is the fact that Chris Boucher did all he could to stop Jacqueline Pearce and Paul Darrow from having any scenes together in s4.
For some reason he HATED their pairing. Why? Unlike most other hero/villainess pairings it actually does make sense, as Avon isn't a hero and is self serving. It was also hugely popular with the actors and the fans? Furthermore we have Servalan get off with one of the heroes in s4 anyway, Tarrant.
Yet he made sure they only met in two small scenes? Sand was originally written with Avon in mind, and you know it would have been better with him. He had more history with Servalan, and to be honest, even though I like that episode, it is stupid that Tarrant falls for Servalan. Given how close he is to Dayna alone, also I think the seduction scenes with Servalan and Tarrant are a bit demeaning for her as she has to act all nicey nice, girl next door to win him round, where as with Avon, they wouldn't have had to soften her up, and could have actually talked about past encounters and characters like Hal, Travis, Blake etc.
Then there is also Jacqueline Pearce's constant bitterness at the writers of s4, which didn't really make sense to me. She often called them hacks and said she enjoyed making Two Doctors more than B7 s4. Also one of the things in Paul Darrow's scripts for the episode he wrote, was to bring Servalan and Avon together, which she was all for. She was apparently the only who was enthusiastic about his script for that reason LOL.
I don't know to me it seems like maybe there was something going on with them, and Chris Boucher, perhaps worried that a scandal like that might harm the show, tried to put a stop to it, by keeping those characters apart, and perhaps that's why she got so bitter? Or maybe it was just a case of Paul Darrow's wife thought there was something going on and Chris kept them apart for that reason, with Jacqueline Pearce getting pissed at the insinuation? That can happen too. Apparently James Marsters girlfriend got jealous of he and Juliet Landau's chemistry together, even though there was nothing going on there.
I don't know there seems to be something fishy about their relationship. Not in bad way, just that maybe they got a bit closer than other members of the cast.
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Post by rushy on Apr 25, 2023 19:17:36 GMT
Considering that Darrow dedicated all of his books to his wife even after her passing, I find it doubtful. Plus, Paul might've had film star looks and played a badass, but he was kind of a quirky nerd in terms of personality. I just can't really picture him as the womanizing type.
I think it's more likely that Darrow quickly realized how open Pearce was physically, and exploited that when it came to establishing the Avon/Servalan dynamic. He wasn't afraid to kiss Pearce, because Pearce was the type of person to let anyone smooch her.
As for the Tarrant/Servalan team-up in series 4, that was mostly an in-joke about Pearce's known crush on Pacey. They were neighbours ("if you were the girl next door, I'd move" being the most obvious reference to that), and legend has it she chased him around naked at one point.
Pearce's bitterness about series 4 makes total sense to me. Servalan is by far the weakest aspect of series 4. The Commissioner Sleer thing devolved into nonsense, and she was given nothing of any real substance to work with aside from "Sand". Didn't even get a sendoff episode. I'd have hated series 4 too in her shoes.
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