Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2021 21:53:31 GMT
I heard something from an old Ian Levine interview (which I believe has been taken down) where he mentions that JNT didn't like The Caves of Androzani and considered The Twin Dilemma his favourite. The latter I believe is true because on a call show he mentioned that the two he enjoyed the most were Traken and Dilemma. To be completely honest I don't really like Caves either and there are a number of so called "rotten" stories from the era that I'd take over it - Time-Flight and Warriors for instance. I would love to know why he didn't like it, if the rumour is of course true. Personally, Caves is nowhere near as engaging as the likes of Earthshock, Mawdryn or Enlightenment. I find it too dark and depressing and somewhat alienating (Resurrection at least had characters you actually cared about other than the Doctor and the companions). It's a well made production, but it rarely feels like a Davison era story. It lacks the charm of previous Davison efforts as well.
|
|
|
|
Post by burrunjor on Jul 9, 2021 21:59:04 GMT
I heard something from an old Ian Levine interview (which I believe has been taken down) where he mentions that JNT didn't like The Caves of Androzani and considered The Twin Dilemma his favourite. The latter I believe is true because on a call show he mentioned that the two he enjoyed the most were Traken and Dilemma. To be completely honest I don't really like Caves either and there are a number of so called "rotten" stories from the era that I'd take over it - Time-Flight and Warriors for instance. I would love to know why he didn't like it, if the rumour is of course true. Personally, Caves is nowhere near as engaging as the likes of Earthshock, Mawdryn or Enlightenment. I find it too dark and depressing and somewhat alienating (Resurrection at least had characters you actually cared about other than the Doctor and the companions). It's a well made production, but it rarely feels like a Davison era story. It lacks the charm of previous Davison efforts as well. Oh come on Maxil now you are just trying to wind up Tanman  . In no universe are Timeflight or Warriors even fit to be in the same show as Androzani. (I say that as someone who finds Caves ridiculously overrated by the way, but it's not either boring, stupid, or as shoddily made as either of those two stories.) As for JNT not liking it I don't think that was true at all. He talked about it with fondness in a lot of interviews I saw, and I'll try and dig some of them up. I don't think he quite liked Twin Dilemma meanwhile as he admitted he got that one wrong in a BBV interview. |
|
|
|
Post by Bernard Marx on Jul 9, 2021 22:04:17 GMT
It's a well made production, but it rarely feels like a Davison era story. To be honest, that's probably why I love it so much, and why I don't think the era could have ended any other way. It works so well precisely because it places the most placid Doctor into the most alienating and downright brutal of environments, thus forcing him to relinquish his passivity (after said passivity indirectly contributed to so many characters dying in previous stories) to the extent where he shakes off his regeneration in episode 3 in light of saving somebody he barely knows. It's precisely because the setting and tone contrast so readily with Davison's Doctor that it ironically becomes his finest story, given that it absolutely pushes him to the limit and forces him to "shed his skin" (to paraphrase Joseph Campbell). He puts aside his passivity and prevents the one good person within a truly dreadful and demeaning setting from dying. As for the other characters, I'd argue that Jek is infinitely better written than any character in Resurrection (bar perhaps Davros), especially when it comes to dialogue and pathos, and I say that as somebody who's warmed to Resurrection over time. I rarely see this commented upon, but I'd say it's this final story that truly characterises the Sixth Doctor. Davison realises that the universe is no place for a nice guy, therefore encouraging the Doctor to adopt a considerably hardened persona in his following incarnation. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2021 22:07:35 GMT
I heard something from an old Ian Levine interview (which I believe has been taken down) where he mentions that JNT didn't like The Caves of Androzani and considered The Twin Dilemma his favourite. The latter I believe is true because on a call show he mentioned that the two he enjoyed the most were Traken and Dilemma. To be completely honest I don't really like Caves either and there are a number of so called "rotten" stories from the era that I'd take over it - Time-Flight and Warriors for instance. I would love to know why he didn't like it, if the rumour is of course true. Personally, Caves is nowhere near as engaging as the likes of Earthshock, Mawdryn or Enlightenment. I find it too dark and depressing and somewhat alienating (Resurrection at least had characters you actually cared about other than the Doctor and the companions). It's a well made production, but it rarely feels like a Davison era story. It lacks the charm of previous Davison efforts as well. Oh come on Maxil now you are just trying to wind up Tanman . In no universe are Timeflight or Warriors even fit to be in the same show as Androzani. (I say that as someone who finds Caves ridiculously overrated by the way, but it's not either boring, stupid, or as shoddily made as either of those two stories.) As for JNT not liking it I don't think that was true at all. He talked about it with fondness in a lot of interviews I saw, and I'll try and dig some of them up. I don't think he quite liked Twin Dilemma meanwhile as he admitted he got that one wrong in a BBV interview. If he's obsessively reading posts here still then he should probably get out more, but my intention wasn't to annoy him. I genuinely believe that Time-Flight and Warriors are better. "It's not as shoddily made as either of those two stories" You're absolutely right except for the moment part of the cave wobbles and Nicola is seen bouncing on something when she falls down. It's also got the most embarrassingly shite monster that's even worse than the Myrka. There isn't one character in Caves that I like or really care about. In Warriors I cared about the likes of Preston and the commander at the very least. |
|
|
|
Post by burrunjor on Jul 9, 2021 22:12:36 GMT
Oh come on Maxil now you are just trying to wind up Tanman . In no universe are Timeflight or Warriors even fit to be in the same show as Androzani. (I say that as someone who finds Caves ridiculously overrated by the way, but it's not either boring, stupid, or as shoddily made as either of those two stories.) As for JNT not liking it I don't think that was true at all. He talked about it with fondness in a lot of interviews I saw, and I'll try and dig some of them up. I don't think he quite liked Twin Dilemma meanwhile as he admitted he got that one wrong in a BBV interview. If he's obsessively reading posts here still then he should probably get out more, but my intention wasn't to annoy him. I genuinely believe that Time-Flight and Warriors are better. "It's not as shoddily made as either of those two stories" You're absolutely right except for the moment part of the cave wobbles and Nicola is seen bouncing on something when she falls down. It's also got the most embarrassingly shite monster that's even worse than the Myrka. There isn't one character in Caves that I like or really care about. In Warriors I cared about the likes of Preston and the commander at the very least. Sorry he is NOT reading posts here. I wasn't trying to start a fight as obvs I still know him, I was just making a joke about his hatred for Warriors, same way someone would about my legendary hatred for Missy. Also as shit as the monster in Caves is, it's still nowhere near as bad as the Myrka. At least it can actually chase it's enemies, whilst the Myrka has to wait for people to jump into it because it can't run. Nobody tries to kung fu it either. |
|
|
|
Post by Bernard Marx on Jul 9, 2021 22:14:43 GMT
Also as shit as the monster in Caves is, it's still nowhere near as bad as the Myrka. At least it can actually chase it's enemies, whilst the Myrka has to wait for people to jump into it because it can't run. Nobody tries to kung fu it either. It's also only on screen for about two seconds. Easily skippable. That said, it's easily the weakest part of a stellar story. Having said that, on the topic of Warriors, I think I personally prefer it to Time-Flight and The King's Demons at this point, even if it is laughably made, purely because it isn't as lethargic and somewhat entertaining. |
|
|
|
Post by burrunjor on Jul 9, 2021 22:45:26 GMT
Also as shit as the monster in Caves is, it's still nowhere near as bad as the Myrka. At least it can actually chase it's enemies, whilst the Myrka has to wait for people to jump into it because it can't run. Nobody tries to kung fu it either. It's also only on screen for about two seconds. Easily skippable. That said, it's easily the weakest part of a stellar story. Having said that, on the topic of Warriors, I think I personally prefer it to Time-Flight and The King's Demons at this point, even if it is laughably made, purely because it isn't as lethargic and somewhat entertaining. I think the Kings Demons is better than Warriors as it has a slightly better story, isn't laughable, and is mercifully quick. Time Flight though really is the dogs. The Myrka meanwhile is an example of the type of monster DW shouldn't do. Giant monsters. From the Skarasen, to the Pertwee Dinosaurs, to Kroll, to the Mara, to the Myrka, they are all among the most laughable monsters ever put to screen. The Drashiggs were the only giant monsters Classic Who did that looked great. I don't know how they managed to make them look great compared to the others LOL, but they did. (I suppose Azal is not bad either, whilst the Allosaurus from The Silurians is okay. Nothing great, but at least it's kept in the shadows more.) |
|
|
|
Post by RobFilth on Jul 10, 2021 7:49:54 GMT
Warriors had the potential to be a better story than Caves had it featured some proper direction and production values and actors who could act.
Sadly, it's a falling down mess.
Chief criticism of Caves is that it's very talky in places and subsequently a bit dull for the casual viewer, I remember on first viewing finding the first few episodes boring compared to Resurrection of the Daleks.
It's only on subsequent re-watches it becomes apparent just how fantastic the direction and some of the acting and characterization is.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2021 9:27:47 GMT
It's also only on screen for about two seconds. Easily skippable. That said, it's easily the weakest part of a stellar story. Having said that, on the topic of Warriors, I think I personally prefer it to Time-Flight and The King's Demons at this point, even if it is laughably made, purely because it isn't as lethargic and somewhat entertaining. I think the Kings Demons is better than Warriors as it has a slightly better story, isn't laughable, and is mercifully quick. Time Flight though really is the dogs. The Myrka meanwhile is an example of the type of monster DW shouldn't do. Giant monsters. From the Skarasen, to the Pertwee Dinosaurs, to Kroll, to the Mara, to the Myrka, they are all among the most laughable monsters ever put to screen. The Drashiggs were the only giant monsters Classic Who did that looked great. I don't know how they managed to make them look great compared to the others LOL, but they did. (I suppose Azal is not bad either, whilst the Allosaurus from The Silurians is okay. Nothing great, but at least it's kept in the shadows more.) Warriors has a stronger script than Kings Demons, a story I don't even mind that much. With Warriors, the base under siege aspects of the story really draw me in. I also fancy Preston a lot which may or may not influence my positives feelings towards the story lol In fairness, apart from the obvious production howlers, the direction and music are pretty good for the most part. It's certainly better directed than Timelash. Time-Flight has a good script also, but some of it reminds me of a really cheap science fiction film from the 1950s. It certainly looks like one. Thankfully, the characters are interesting and Davison is on top form. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2021 9:30:29 GMT
Warriors had the potential to be a better story than Caves had it featured some proper direction and production values and actors who could act. Sadly, it's a falling down mess. Chief criticism of Caves is that it's very talky in places and subsequently a bit dull for the casual viewer, I remember on first viewing finding the first few episodes boring compared to Resurrection of the Daleks. It's only on subsequent re-watches it becomes apparent just how fantastic the direction and some of the acting and characterization is. "Actors who could act" I always thought the acting was the best thing about it personally. |
|
|
|
Post by iank on Jul 10, 2021 21:19:29 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by burrunjor on Jul 10, 2021 21:34:04 GMT
Acting and characteristion in Resurrection.   They were talking about Warriors. Resurrection meanwhile is an absolute classic and holds up brilliantly. I will say though there's more diversity of opinion in this thread than there is the entirety of Gallifrey Base or Doctor Who youtubers. That's why I like the Hive. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2021 22:02:46 GMT
Acting and characteristion in Resurrection. They were talking about Warriors. Resurrection meanwhile is an absolute classic and holds up brilliantly. I will say though there's more diversity of opinion in this thread than there is the entirety of Gallifrey Base or Doctor Who youtubers. That's why I like the Hive. "Resurrection meanwhile is an absolute classic holds up brilliantly" It definitely kicks arse. Probably my favourite Davison story. It really shocks me that a number of people in fandom don't rate it. |
|
|
|
Post by burrunjor on Jul 10, 2021 22:08:36 GMT
They were talking about Warriors. Resurrection meanwhile is an absolute classic and holds up brilliantly. I will say though there's more diversity of opinion in this thread than there is the entirety of Gallifrey Base or Doctor Who youtubers. That's why I like the Hive. "Resurrection meanwhile is an absolute classic holds up brilliantly" It definitely kicks arse. Probably my favourite Davison story. It really shocks me that a number of people in fandom don't rate it. I can't think of anywhere it falls down. The Davros/Doctor confrontation is brilliant. I love the story arc that builds up throughout all Dalek stories from Genesis to Remembrance. Another reason I f*cking hate this bullshit of the Doctors are different people and continuity doesn't matter. |
|
|
|
Post by iank on Jul 11, 2021 5:31:00 GMT
Resurrection is complete garbage. Witless, awfully written with zero characters and terrible dialogue, and awfully acted for the most part. It's a complete mess from beginning to end. Not just one of the worst Davisons, one of the one worst classics.
|
|
. In no universe are Timeflight or Warriors even fit to be in the same show as Androzani. (I say that as someone who finds Caves ridiculously overrated by the way, but it's not either boring, stupid, or as shoddily made as either of those two stories.)
