Best out of these three bitches?

[burrunjor]

Continuing the theme of comparing random characters from genre shows. 

The three in this post are

Glory



Alti



and 

The Rani




Now there aren't really that many similarities between these characters like Ace, Faith and Kelly. However all three I think represent an important and sadly underrated take on female villains. 

Generally speaking the sci fi and the fantasy genres have been more progressive when it comes to female characters than others like westerns, spy and espionage, crime thrillers etc. However ironically when it comes to female villains, then I think a lot of writers fall into the following traps. 

1/ The female villain's main weapon is her sexuality. Now in all fairness that IS something that women can use more than men, simply because guys have a higher sex drive. Still obviously you want women to be able to threaten men in terms of intellect, strength etc. Indeed in the earliest stories sadly an emphasis was put on the female villain being seductive because the idea of a woman threatening a man in any other way was deemed laughable. Also seduction scenes if not done careful can be incredibly cringe. A combination of the actors feeling awkward and the writing just living out his or her wank fantasies (particularly the forbidden fruit ones as it's a bad girl) can make it very uncomfortable to watch, like that Harley Quinn animated movie where she ties Robin to the bed and shags him, whilst we get a shot of her having two butt cracks.

I always feel sorry for the actresses having to do those scenes. The slightest bit of embarrassment is always visible. It reminds me of all the times Monica tries to seduce Chandler in Friends LMAO.


I hate to say but the awkwardness of Monica's "oooohhhh the steeel is sexy" reminds me a lot of Alex Kingston's acting as River LOL. 



Also this limits what female villains can be, as obviously they always have to be sex bombs. Again nothing wrong with a sexy female villain, but we have to be able to have other types of female villains who are monstrous like Davros, or disfigured like the Joker or hell even just normal looking and not sexed up. 

Finally these types of female villains, don't really make men look very good either, the way that we're so shallow even if a woman is a psycho murderer the fact that she is hot trumps that.

2/ The female villain is often in love with the male hero and her whole motive is wanting to be with him, which will often lead to her trying to use her womanliness LOL to make him go mad, or she'll turn good. Catwoman, Missy, Maxima, Darla, Zelena, even Xena when she was evil all followed this template.

Again I'm not saying you can NEVER do this as when done right like Batman and Catwoman, it's an incredibly exciting, sexy dynamic. Still again when it becomes the default for most female villains, yeah it gets a bit limiting and can often make the female villain seem ineffective and lame compared to the male villains, like the Joker and Davros who are legitimate threats and have big wide goals beyond just being with the hero.

Also again it can be seen to reinforce gender stereotypes that all women care about is landing mr right. 

3/ Finally female villains are often let off the hook compared to male villains. Regardless of how bad they are, the male hero will usually think they are just misguided. It's an extremely condescending attitude of "Awwww poor little women aren't capable of actually being responsible for their own actions, so let's not hold her to the same high standards as the men." Lot's of shows do this, like Angel who is so much easier on the beautiful women who want redemption like Faith and Darla than Lindsey. Even when Lindsey is trying to seek redemption Angel rejects and kills him, whilst Darla he goes out of his way to save when she's being a total bitch.

4/ This is a more recent trend, but still they have to make the female villain empowering. Again not saying you can't have sympathetic villains, but sometimes the female villain will be presented as still just trying to survive in a maaaaaaaaan's world and has only become a tough bitch because she had too. They toss in an abusive father or male figure as well.

5/ She'll be a man hating feminist bitch who wants to kill all men. Again sometimes this character can overlap with 4, other times such as in the Blake's 7 episode Power, it's just a male writer getting his frustration at the opposite sex out. Regardless it's another sexist trope that doesn't see women as people like men, as whilst male villains can be like Davros and have glorious plans to take over the galaxy, female villains still have to be defined by being female villains, so their plans have to all be about being women. It reminds me of Alan Partridge when he has the female politician on and says to her "I don't know you want to talk about... women or something?"

Now again I'm not saying that these tropes should NEVER be used (apart from number 5 which is just shit.)  You can get some good stories out of it. Sand for instance is a prime example of 1, 2 and 3. It's really ridiculous and laughable that Tarrant has any sympathy for that bitch, but it still works as a classic all around. (And it was written by a woman too, showing it's not just a guys fantasy all the time.) Similarly Xena's original arc that was the epitome of the first 3, was amazing and led to one of the greatest female characters of all time. Also I don't want to be a male feminist going mad every time a female villain is sexy or uses sexuality. Servalan for the most part was an exceptionally brilliant and powerful female villain and wouldn't have been the same if Jacqueline Pearce hadn't brought that aspect to it.

Missy meanwhile is the worst example of all 5 tropes, with her developing an anti men streak in the Missy chronicles which sees her try to liberate women in the 19th century through time travelling social media and torture and kill men who don't accept her gender change, in a story written by James Goss (who else?)

Still again obviously it's good to get female villains that buck the trend and are more than that and on tv I think these three women were really pioneers. 

All three to start with whilst still glam, are NOT reliant on their sexuality. Glory is physically stronger than any of the previous or subsequent villains, Alti can make someone experience the worst pain from their past and future by grabbing their throat and later just by looking at them. The Rani is a scientific genius, more so than the Doctor and the Master, and has a planet under her thumb as well as numerous inventions. There are some sexual elements to Alti and Glory admittedly, but even then it's not in a seductive way. They are shown to often force themselves on guys they are torturing, like Glory mounting herself on Spike as she literally pulls his guts and intestines out with her finger, or Alti forcing a kiss on her scared lackey as she squeezes his stab wound for fun, or when she hacks Julius Cesar to bits whilst shagging him! These female villains sexualities are more like the Christopher Lee's Dracula. Threatening, disturbing and predatory. 

All regularly kick the shit out of the male characters around them, or capture them, torture them, outsmart them etc and make them feel small and pathetic. 

All also have grand ambitions. Alti wants to absorb the strongest dark magics that can allow her to become a goddess, and the only way she can accomplish that is not only through death and violence, but by devouring and torturing souls too! Glory wants to get back to her hell dimension to rule it, and is willing to sacrifice every other world to do that, whilst the Rani cares about her experiments and has no problem experimenting on lesser creatures like humans to get it.

All are also NOT let off because they are women haha. Alti gets killed as many times as Christopher Lee's Dracula. She's impaled on a tree, burned in a fire, when she comes back as a skeleton she has her legs and arms smashed off and then her head kicked off, then she's electrocuted until she melts into ash! Glory is smacked with a wrecking ball, soundly beaten with a hammer and reduced to a whimpering, begging little bitch who gets her face smashed in as she's begging, and the Rani first gets locked in a room with a Tyrannosaurus and then left in the company of creepy bat monsters. 

Finally best of all, their genders don't define them. I mean don't get me wrong all are extremely feminine characters, but what I mean is they don't have to be empowering, represent women, and none of them are man hating feminist caricatures. Alti, Glory and the Rani are equal opportunity torturers and sadists and put just as many women like Tara, Gabrielle, etc through the torture (and seem to be just as predatory towards them too.) 

To me they are three of the best female villains in this respect, but which do you think is the absolute best? 







Well I'm going to say Alti. You all probably aren't surprised at that. 

I think Alti is the best for a number of reasons, not just my erotic masochistic fantasies. First of all she has the best track record. She is in a lot of classics, with When Fates Collide being one of the best Xena episodes. The Rani sadly, of her two tv stories, her first is okay, whilst her second is dreadful. She is a good character in both, so I don't think the second being bad is her fault at all, but yeah sadly it's a poor episode nonetheless. Glory meanwhile does have lots of classics, but in most of her stories she actually doesn't have much screen time. For instance in her second, her plot is actually the b-plot where she just sends some demons after Buffy with the main villain really being Tara's misogynistic controlling father, whilst in the snake one, similarly she works behind the scenes. Hell one episode has her only comment on Buffy having a date! To be honest I'd say that only her first episode, Intervention, Tough Love and The Gift are the episodes where she is either the main threat, or at least proactive in the plot. The rest of the time she either has her minions, or its other villains like those stupid knights that have the most screen time. Alti meanwhile was ALWAYS the centre of attention. Even f*cking Julius Cesar got sidetracked for her. I also think her stories like In Between The Lines where a lot more creative and offbeat for Xena, again than a lot of Glory's and The Rani's were in their respective series.

Furthermore Alti was I think different territory for Xena. She was more of a horror movie villain than a warlord, character from mythology etc like Xena's rogues. She brought a whole new mystical edge into the show and allowed it to explore other mythologies like reincarnation. 

Also Alti I think was by far the most entertaining. Claire Stansfield is gloriously over the top. We're talking the burned Master from the Deadly Assassin levels of over the top and also being a big 6 foot 4 amazon in real life, she really looked like she could kick your ass. (It's no wonder she was only able to play the damsel, wimpy, leading lady to Dolph Lundgren haha. Even then he's only an inch or two bigger than her.) Clare Kramer and Kate O'Mara were great don't get me wrong, but I don't know I just don't think they dominated the screen quite as well as she did. Again case in point, Alti took centre stage when paired with another villain in her last story, Glory was sidetracked by villains of the week and the Rani had to share her debut with the Master. (Funnily enough Alti played a mad serial killer in another movie who stalks Eric Roberts who is terrified of her she's such a crazy bitch. I love that Alti is too crazy for the Master.)

Finally Alti definitely f*cked with Xena more. You got to give all three ladies their credit. They ALL killed the main hero! The Rani shot the 6th Doctor, Glory kicked off the chain of events that led to Buffy's death, and Alti crucified Xena in that alternate timeline. However generally speaking Alti f*cked with Xena more in terms of putting her on a path to darkness, corrupting her, cursing her child so it would never know the love of either parents, which led to his early death, and she also beat the shit out of her far more than Glory even did to Buffy. We never saw Buffy on the floor as cut up, legs broken and smacked around the way Xena was with Alti. You only have too look at how they killed their respective heroes. Buffy died in a big swirly thing whilst giving a poignant speech to sad music, the Doctor banged his head, Xena was shot with arrows and dragged through the streets by horses, had her legs broke and was then crucified all whilst Alti laughed at her. 

Still you may have other preferences?

[rushy]

Who?

Who?

The Rani wins by default. Although I'm not really a huge fan of her tbh. I know that icy detachment separates her from the Master, but it's still the same type of obviously irredeemable villain. Sneering and self-important. Just with Mengele flavouring.

I feel like the Monk made a much better alternative to the Master (before Big Finish did whatever tf they did). The Monk isn't some sadistic baddie, he's basically a troll. You could do anything with him.

[burrunjor]

Mar 14, 2024 23:28:51 GMT rushy said:

Who?

Who?

The Rani wins by default. Although I'm not really a huge fan of her tbh. I know that icy detachment separates her from the Master, but it's still the same type of obviously irredeemable villain. Sneering and self-important. Just with Mengele flavouring.

I feel like the Monk made a much better alternative to the Master (before Big Finish did whatever tf they did). The Monk isn't some sadistic baddie, he's basically a troll. You could do anything with him.

I didn't bother with much of their Monk output, but when I saw they turned him into The Nun I knew I had made the right choice. Absolutely pathetic. 

You need to watch Xena and Buffy pronto (and Angel.) Xena doesn't get the credit it's due. I think a lot of people assume it was just a cheesy Spice Girlsesue girl power thing that only 90s girls liked, and also that it was a wank show for guys. I'm not going to deny it WAS the biggest wank show ever made without exception LOL, but it was actually good beyond that. Still yeah total wank fest. 

[rushy]

I don't doubt that it's a fun time. Anything from the Raimi-team is at least peak entertainment.

[Cherry Pepsi Maxil]

Mar 14, 2024 23:12:38 GMT burrunjor said:

Continuing the theme of comparing random characters from genre shows LOL. 

The three in this post are

Glory



Alti



and 

The Rani




Now there aren't really that many similarities between these characters like Ace, Faith and Kelly. However all three I think represent an important and sadly underrated take on female villains. 

Generally speaking the sci fi and the fantasy genres have been more progressive when it comes to female characters than others like westerns, spy and espionage, crime thrillers etc. However ironically when it comes to female villains, then I think a lot of writers fall into the following traps. 

1/ The female villain's main weapon is her sexuality. Now in all fairness that IS something that women can use more than men, simply because guys have a higher sex drive. Still obviously you want women to be able to threaten men in terms of intellect, strength etc. Indeed in the earliest stories sadly an emphasis was put on the female villain being seductive because the idea of a woman threatening a man in any other way was deemed laughable. Also seduction scenes if not done careful can be incredibly cringe. A combination of the actors feeling awkward and the writing just living out his or her wank fantasies (particularly the forbidden fruit ones as it's a bad girl) can make it very uncomfortable to watch, like that Harley Quinn animated movie where she ties Robin to the bed and shags him, whilst we get a shot of her having two butt cracks.

I always feel sorry for the actresses having to do those scenes LOL. The slightest bit of embarrassment is always visible. It reminds me of all the times Monica tries to seduce Chandler in Friends LMAO.


I hate to say but the awkwardness of Monica's "oooohhhh the steeel is sexy" reminds me a lot of Alex Kingston's acting as River LOL. 



Also this limits what female villains can be, as obviously they always have to be sex bombs. Again nothing wrong with a sexy female villain, but we have to be able to have other types of female villains who are monstrous like Davros, or disfigured like the Joker or hell even just normal looking and not sexed up. 

Finally these types of female villains, don't really make men look very good either LOL, the way that we're so shallow even if a woman is a psycho murderer the fact that she is hot trumps that.

2/ The female villain is often in love with the male hero and her whole motive is wanting to be with him, which will often lead to her trying to use her womanliness LOL to make him go mad, or she'll turn good. Catwoman, Missy, Maxima, Darla, Zelena, even Xena when she was evil all followed this template.

Again I'm not saying you can NEVER do this as when done right like Batman and Catwoman, it's an incredibly exciting, sexy dynamic. Still again when it becomes the default for most female villains, yeah it gets a bit limiting and can often make the female villain seem ineffective and lame compared to the male villains, like the Joker and Davros who are legitimate threats and have big wide goals beyond just being with the hero.

Also again it can be seen to reinforce gender stereotypes that all women care about is landing mr right. 

3/ Finally female villains are often let off the hook compared to male villains. Regardless of how bad they are, the male hero will usually think they are just misguided. It's an extremely condescending attitude of "Awwww poor little women aren't capable of actually being responsible for their own actions, so let's not hold her to the same high standards as the men." Lot's of shows do this, like Angel who is so much easier on the beautiful women who want redemption like Faith and Darla than Lindsey LOL. Even when Lindsey is trying to seek redemption Angel rejects and kills him, whilst Darla he goes out of his way to save when she's being a total bitch.

4/ This is a more recent trend, but still they have to make the female villain empowering. Again not saying you can't have sympathetic villains, but sometimes the female villain will be presented as still just trying to survive in a maaaaaaaaan's world and has only become a tough bitch because she had too. They toss in an abusive father or male figure as well.

5/ She'll be a man hating feminist bitch who wants to kill all men. Again sometimes this character can overlap with 4, other times such as in the Blake's 7 episode Power, it's just a male writer getting his frustration at the opposite sex out LOL. Regardless it's another sexist trope that doesn't see women as people like men, as whilst male villains can be like Davros and have glorious plans to take over the galaxy, female villains still have to be defined by being female villains, so their plans have to all be about being women. It reminds me of Alan Partridge when he has the female politician on and says to her "I don't know you want to talk about... women or something?"

Now again I'm not saying that these tropes should NEVER be used (apart from number 5 which is just shit.)  You can get some good stories out of it. Sand for instance is a prime example of 1, 2 and 3. It's really ridiculous and laughable that Tarrant has any sympathy for that bitch LOL, but it still works as a classic all around. (And it was written by a woman too, showing it's not just a guys fantasy all the time.) Similarly Xena's original arc that was the epitome of the first 3, was amazing and led to one of the greatest female characters of all time. Also I don't want to be a male feminist going mad every time a female villain is sexy or uses sexuality. Servalan for the most part was an exceptionally brilliant and powerful female villain and wouldn't have been the same if Jacqueline Pearce hadn't brought that aspect to it.

Missy meanwhile is the worst example of all 5 tropes, with her developing an anti men streak in the Missy chronicles which sees her try to liberate women in the 19th century through time travelling social media and torture and kill men who don't accept her gender change, in a story written by James Goss (who else?)

Still again obviously it's good to get female villains that buck the trend and are more than that and on tv I think these three women were really pioneers. 

All three to start with whilst still glam, are NOT reliant on their sexuality. Glory is physically stronger than any of the previous or subsequent villains, Alti can make someone experience the worst pain from their past and future by grabbing their throat and later just by looking at them. The Rani is a scientific genius, more so than the Doctor and the Master, and has a planet under her thumb as well as numerous inventions. There are some sexual elements to Alti and Glory admittedly, but even then it's not in a seductive way. They are shown to often force themselves on guys they are torturing, like Glory mounting herself on Spike as she literally pulls his guts and intestines out with her finger, or Alti forcing a kiss on her scared lackey as she squeezes his stab wound for fun, or when she hacks Julius Cesar to bits whilst shagging him! These female villains sexualities are more like the Christopher Lee's Dracula. Threatening, disturbing and predatory. 

All regularly kick the shit out of the male characters around them, or capture them, torture them, outsmart them etc and make them feel small and pathetic. 

All also have grand ambitions. Alti wants to absorb the strongest dark magics that can allow her to become a goddess, and the only way she can accomplish that is not only through death and violence, but by devouring and torturing souls too! Glory wants to get back to her hell dimension to rule it, and is willing to sacrifice every other world to do that, whilst the Rani cares about her experiments and has no problem experimenting on lesser creatures like humans to get it.

All are also NOT let off because they are women haha. Alti gets killed as many times as Christopher Lee's Dracula. She's impaled on a tree, burned in a fire, when she comes back as a skeleton she has her legs and arms smashed off and then her head kicked off, then she's electrocuted until she melts into ash! Glory is smacked with a wrecking ball, soundly beaten with a hammer and reduced to a whimpering, begging little bitch who gets her face smashed in as she's begging, and the Rani first gets locked in a room with a Tyrannosaurus and then left in the company of creepy bat monsters. 

Finally best of all, their genders don't define them. I mean don't get me wrong all are extremely feminine characters, but what I mean is they don't have to be empowering, represent women, and none of them are man hating feminist caricatures LOL. Alti, Glory and the Rani are equal opportunity torturers and sadists and put just as many women like Tara, Gabrielle, etc through the torture (and seem to be just as predatory towards them too.) 

To me they are three of the best female villains in this respect, but which do you think is the absolute best? 







Well I'm going to say Alti. You all probably aren't surprised at that haha. 

I think Alti is the best for a number of reasons, not just my erotic masochistic fantasies LOL. First of all she has the best track record. She is in a lot of classics, with When Fates Collide being one of the best Xena episodes. The Rani sadly, of her two tv stories, her first is okay, whilst her second is dreadful. She is a good character in both, so I don't think the second being bad is her fault at all, but yeah sadly it's a poor episode nonetheless. Glory meanwhile does have lots of classics, but in most of her stories she actually doesn't have much screen time. For instance in her second, her plot is actually the b-plot where she just sends some demons after Buffy with the main villain really being Tara's misogynistic controlling father, whilst in the snake one, similarly she works behind the scenes. Hell one episode has her only comment on Buffy having a date! To be honest I'd say that only her first episode, Intervention, Tough Love and The Gift are the episodes where she is either the main threat, or at least proactive in the plot. The rest of the time she either has her minions, or its other villains like those stupid knights that have the most screen time. Alti meanwhile was ALWAYS the centre of attention. Even f*cking Julius Cesar got sidetracked for her. I also think her stories like In Between The Lines where a lot more creative and offbeat for Xena, again than a lot of Glory's and The Rani's were in their respective series.

Furthermore Alti was I think different territory for Xena. She was more of a horror movie villain than a warlord, character from mythology etc like Xena's rogues. She brought a whole new mystical edge into the show and allowed it to explore other mythologies like reincarnation. 

Also Alti I think was by far the most entertaining. Claire Stansfield is gloriously over the top. We're talking the burned Master from the Deadly Assassin levels of over the top LOL and also being a big 6 foot 4 amazon in real life, she really looked like she could kick your ass. (It's no wonder she was only able to play the damsel, wimpy, leading lady to Dolph Lundgren haha. Even then he's only an inch or two bigger than her.) Clare Kramer and Kate O'Mara were great don't get me wrong, but I don't know I just don't think they dominated the screen quite as well as she did. Again case in point, Alti took centre stage when paired with another villain in her last story, Glory was sidetracked by villains of the week and the Rani had to share her debut with the Master. (Funnily enough Alti played a mad serial killer in another movie who stalks Eric Roberts who is terrified of her she's such a crazy bitch. I love that Alti is too crazy for the Master.)

Finally Alti definitely f*cked with Xena more. You got to give all three ladies their credit. They ALL killed the main hero! The Rani shot the 6th Doctor, Glory kicked off the chain of events that led to Buffy's death, and Alti crucified Xena in that alternate timeline. However generally speaking Alti f*cked with Xena more in terms of putting her on a path to darkness, corrupting her, cursing her child so it would never know the love of either parents, which led to his early death, and she also beat the shit out of her far more than Glory even did to Buffy. We never saw Buffy on the floor as cut up, legs broken and smacked around the way Xena was with Alti. You only have too look at how they killed their respective heroes. Buffy died in a big swirly thing whilst giving a poignant speech to sad music, the Doctor banged his head, Xena was shot with arrows and dragged through the streets by horses, had her legs broke and was then crucified all whilst Alti laughed at her. 

Still you may have other preferences?

@glory Jeez, Ian was right. Buffy is stacked with hotties! What site is it streaming on?

[burrunjor]

Mar 15, 2024 1:55:11 GMT rushy said:

I don't doubt that it's a fun time. Anything from the Raimi-team is at least peak entertainment.

It is. I don't know why it is slept on to such an extent?

I think part of it is Game of Thrones fans. They truly were as bad as Star Trek fans in the 60s and 70s in terms of shitting on everything else in their respective genres. ANY fantasy show or product was deemed inferior and childish compared to theirs, with Xena being the other big fantasy show, getting it by far the worst. I remember Jimmy Carr even making a joke on a big fat quiz of the 90s about that. "You had Xena in the 90s, it was like Game of Thrones only it was shit." What's the betting the scrotum faced tax dodging little c*nt hasn't seen a second of it and is just jumping on yet another bandwagon? 

This of course just made Game of Thrones fall all the more delicious hahaha. PS much like Star Trek fans they had a cheek sneering at other fantasy shows as theirs was just as stupid, if not more so. Just because it talked in ye olde English and had plenty of tits didn't make it adult. 

The truth of the matter is that things like Buffy, Angel, New Who, Once Upon A Time, Alias, Dark Angel, Supernatural, Charmed all grew directly out of Xena. It was the one that laid down so many tropes, character types, and templates that other shows followed, of course you might not think that's a good thing if you don't like that generation of shows LOL, but still love it or hate it, it was a game changer. 

I think part of it might also be Raimi and Tapert are quite laid back guys in that respect. Again look at Quatermass. It's kind of comparable to Xena in that, Xena and Quatermass where the ones that established the template for many shows, but in both cases they were overshadowed by Doctor Who and Buffy, that came immediately after and refined the template in some ways.

However where as Buffy has taken all the credit, Quatermass is still bummed about and respected even though it really hasn't held up to modern audiences from a technical perspective, I mean that is entirely due to the standards of the time, not the story fair enough, but still the original Quatermass serials are primitive even when compared with the Hartnell era Who stories. 60s era Who to me obviously looks old, but it looks like old television. Quatermass however, apart from Quatermass and the Pit, kind of looks almost like a play that's been recorded.  In one you even see a Fly become trapped on the screen! It's far less accessible to modern audiences than Xena is, and will definitely have been seen less, yet it still has retained its reputation over the years? I think that's because Nigel Kneale was such an arrogant shit LOL, who always made out his was the thinking man's sci fi, where as Tapert and Raimi are always kind of honest about just making schlock, but schlock with some heart in it now and again. 

Then finally there is the fact that Xena is a bit campy, and we know how campy shows struggle to be appreciated from Williams era Who to Lost in Space. That said though Buffy was every bit as campy, but again maybe Joss Whedon bumming about himself being a feminist champion for years helped to overthrow that? Again look at Rob Tapert and Sam Raimi, they never bum about how amazing they were for doing something with a female hero. Joss practically built a cult around himself over it! 

All of that said at the end of the day it is just a matter of taste and opinion LOL. but still like I said even objectively Xena doesn't get the credit it's due. I will admit that some of Xena hasn't aged well. It's first season is very slow in some respects. Also season 5 is one of the absolute worst seasons of any show ever made. Other than the Alti episode and the stunning opening, it's all bollocks that year. To be fair the makers themselves even said that, as basically Lucy Lawless had an unexpected pregnancy and so they had to rewrite an entire season at the last minute and the results speak for themselves. Rob Tapert even said a lot of the writers asked for their names to be taken off of season 5 scripts LMAO. I don't blame them. 

Still other than that it's definitely worth a watch. 

[burrunjor]

Mar 15, 2024 9:38:20 GMT Cherry Pepsi Maxil said:

Mar 14, 2024 23:12:38 GMT burrunjor said:

@glory Jeez, Ian was right. Buffy is stacked with hotties! What site is it streaming on?

Alti is way sexier than Glory IMO. You should definitely check out Xena as well as Buffy. Lucy Lawless alone is a goddess.

That said Glory is absolutely gorgeous and sexy too. I remember being very confused as a young boy when she tortured Spike how jealous I was of him LOL. Same with the monk she tortured earlier. Hey in my defense she always mounted herself on the guys she was torturing. Hell in Spike's case she threw him onto her bed and got on top of him! Is it any wonder Buffy raised a generation of boys who like to be dominated?

You know there were even rumours that James Marsters (Spike's actor) shagged Glory's actress during the making of that season? According to the rumours James Marsters got off with the actresses who played Harmony, Tara and Glory.. He was some man if that was true haha. If I'd been him I'd have asked Glory's actress to keep the chains from the torture scene. 

BTW Glory's actress Clare Kramer in real life is sooooo sweet and bubbly. A real Stacey Solomon type. I'm kind of disappointed by that though haha. I'd prefer it if she was a bitch not to shatter the illusion. 

[iank]

Buffy is on Disney+, Maxil.
Sadly.

[burrunjor]

Mar 15, 2024 21:14:07 GMT iank said:

Buffy is on Disney+, Maxil.
Sadly.

Honestly just get Buffy or Xena or any other show you want on physical media. I know it's annoying that you might have to wait to save up to buy it, but in the long it's better as then it's yours for good and not on the whim of some stupid copyright bullshit where the rights switch to so and so. 

[rushy]

Mar 15, 2024 10:24:43 GMT burrunjor said:

I think part of it is Game of Thrones fans. They truly were as bad as Star Trek fans in the 60s and 70s in terms of shitting on everything else in their respective genres. ANY fantasy show or product was deemed inferior and childish compared to theirs, with Xena being the other big fantasy show, getting it by far the worst. I remember Jimmy Carr even making a joke on a big fat quiz of the 90s about that. "You had Xena in the 90s, it was like Game of Thrones only it was shit." What's the betting the scrotum faced tax dodging little c*nt hasn't seen a second of it and is just jumping on yet another bandwagon?

This of course just made Game of Thrones fall all the more delicious hahaha. PS much like Star Trek fans they had a cheek sneering at other fantasy shows as theirs was just as stupid, if not more so. Just because it talked in ye olde English and had plenty of tits didn't make it adult. 

The truth of the matter is that things like Buffy, Angel, New Who, Once Upon A Time, Alias, Dark Angel, Supernatural, Charmed all grew directly out of Xena. It was the one that laid down so many tropes, character types, and templates that other shows followed, of course you might not think that's a good thing if you don't like that generation of shows LOL, but still love it or hate it, it was a game changer.

Game of Thrones was very very good, though, until they had no more books to adapt. There's a reason people are still clamouring for Martin to write his follow-ups. I don't think there's any need to crap on it just out of spite.

Once Upon a Time I'd argue had most of its influence from LOST, which is what the writers worked on directly before. The flashback structure, themes of destiny, being trapped in a mysterious location that had a supernatural will of its own are ripped straight from it.

[burrunjor]

Mar 16, 2024 0:26:49 GMT rushy said:

Mar 15, 2024 10:24:43 GMT burrunjor said:

I think part of it is Game of Thrones fans. They truly were as bad as Star Trek fans in the 60s and 70s in terms of shitting on everything else in their respective genres. ANY fantasy show or product was deemed inferior and childish compared to theirs, with Xena being the other big fantasy show, getting it by far the worst. I remember Jimmy Carr even making a joke on a big fat quiz of the 90s about that. "You had Xena in the 90s, it was like Game of Thrones only it was shit." What's the betting the scrotum faced tax dodging little c*nt hasn't seen a second of it and is just jumping on yet another bandwagon?

This of course just made Game of Thrones fall all the more delicious hahaha. PS much like Star Trek fans they had a cheek sneering at other fantasy shows as theirs was just as stupid, if not more so. Just because it talked in ye olde English and had plenty of tits didn't make it adult. 

The truth of the matter is that things like Buffy, Angel, New Who, Once Upon A Time, Alias, Dark Angel, Supernatural, Charmed all grew directly out of Xena. It was the one that laid down so many tropes, character types, and templates that other shows followed, of course you might not think that's a good thing if you don't like that generation of shows LOL, but still love it or hate it, it was a game changer.

Game of Thrones was very very good, though, until they had no more books to adapt. There's a reason people are still clamouring for Martin to write his follow-ups. I don't think there's any need to crap on it just out of spite.

Once Upon a Time I'd argue had most of its influence from LOST, which is what the writers worked on directly before. The flashback structure, themes of destiny, being trapped in a mysterious location that had a supernatural will of its own are ripped straight from it.

Personally I thought it was overrated. It's not just out of spite. I still like Star Trek TOS whose fans were every bit as obnoxious and c*nty in the 60s and 70s. (To be honest probably more, as Xena's reputation I think is beginning to improve somewhat. At the very least it's not held up as quite a joke anymore, where as Lost in Space, well it's still misunderstood 60 years on in some ways because the Trekkies trashed it so badly in the 70s. Granted though that might also just be because Xena starred two bisexual women and maybe genre snobs don't want to be seen as not inclusive?)

The fact is though that what I'm saying is the truth in that Star Trek and Game of Thrones fans both liked to sneer at shows that were intentionally campy as inferior to them, and shows for stupid people which ultimately meant that whenever they were campy (as all genre shows will be at some point.) It came over as more ridiculous. In Star Trek's case it was even worse as it was far campier than other serious genre shows like The Prisoner or Doctor Who. (Well at least at that point. TBH DW was rarely campy in terms of plot, just some bad acting and effects. Star Trek however actually did an episode about space hippies!)

Seinfeld is another show I like that has a similarly obnoxious fandom that like to sneer at every other sitcom (especially Friends) as being inferior to theirs and are just insufferable. In fact they might be the absolute f*cking worst as they've kept up that c*nty behavior for much longer. I must admit Jerry Seinfeld being exposed as a bit of an arsehole is similarly delicious from the point of view of, it might finally take them down a peg or two. 

Once Upon A Time meanwhile, obviously Xena wasn't it's only influence, but it definitely drew from the overall template that Xena set down in some ways. 

The following things becoming dominant in American genre shows, including Once Upon A Time, I'd say you can thank Xena for. It certainly didn't create them, but its success in the 90s definitely pushed them into the limelight.

Mixing overt campiness with serious drama. Xena was I think the first genre show to do a musical episode, in fact it had two musical episodes before Buffy's one. Again this is obviously something we'd see in Once Upon A Time.

Obviously it helped increase the popularity of female led shows. Don't worry I'm NOT doing a Jodie here and saying it was even close to the first haha. You have female led shows like the Avengers that were massive back in the 1960s! However it is fair to say that Xena helped kick off what was a massive wave of female led shows (Joss Whedon himself said this.)  The wave meanwhile wasn't just a flash in the pan as the continued popularity of a lot of the shows within it like Buffy showed that female led genre shows had as much staying power as the male ones, and the women were a viable audience for the genre. I'd say Once Upon A Time meanwhile that obviously had a female lead and put its female fairy tale characters at the forefront was kind of at the end of this wave. Sadly though thirty years on the great work from Xena and Buffy is being undone by culture warriors on both sides. The Hollywood idiots who think that they can based on these shows, just lazily remake male led series with female leads, and the grifter, smug, self satisfied tribal idiots like Critical Drinker who then use the failure of these things to say women will never like genre things, so don't bother ever aiming them at female audiences. 

It also really pioneered that kind of anti hero who had done horrible things in the past, and was now trying to make up for them. Again you don't see that in genre shows quite as frequently in the 60s-80s. The Doctor for instance is basically a good guy, so is Captain Kirk. Dr Smith is the closest you get, but he is a bumbling, idiotic, comedy character whose crimes you struggle to take seriously because he's so inept. Avon meanwhile isn't the same thing. He is an anti hero and ruthless, but he's not a full on former villain who killed innocent people. That dynamic would basically explode on genre tv after Xena. Angel obviously was another example of this, and yes so are Regina, Zelena and Rumple. Hell even the Doctor was rewritten into this for the Eccelston era. 

It also as a result of the hero doing bad things, had villains who came from their past. One who they had wronged and one who wanted them to go evil again, and one who was a crooked mentor to them. In Xena's case that was Callisto, whose village she had burned down and was now on the path for revenge, Ares the god of war who wanted her back as his main warrior and tried to use mind games to do it, and Alti who had corrupted her at her darkest. Angel has pretty much all of these characters. Darla is the Ares who wants Angel back and similarly uses mind games to try and do it, as well as the Alti, the evil mentor, whilst Holtz is the person he wronged, by killing his family who wants revenge. (There's even a similar arc where Holtz and Callisto both go after the heroes child, which they only get because of the treacherous actions of a friend, which leads to one of the most shocking moments in both shows.) Regina meanwhile has all of these characters. Again Ares and Alti are combined into Cora, whilst there are many people who fulfill Callisto's role, like the son of the man who stumbled onto Storybrooke. 

Also it's worth mentioning that looooong before Lost Xena made use of extensive flashbacks too. In fact there are entire episodes, such as Alti's first two parter and the two parter in China which basically are like a Once Upon A Time, Lost episode of jumping back and forth between the past and the present and showing how they interconnect. Again this is something we'd see in shows like Angel too. 

It also pioneered the meta episodes too, though this isn't something I'd want to give it credit for as meta episodes are absolute f*cking shit and ruin the shows they are part of LOL. Meta's for me are as much of a no go as war of the sexes stories for me. I know I like Osgood but that's only because of Ingrid Oliver, and to be honest she'd probably have been better if there was no meta there. Still this is also something we see in the final season at least of Once Upon A Time and yes other shows like New Who and Supernatural. 

Finally Xena and its parent show Hercules also created the popular inaccurate historical period, where numerous figures from different periods of history existed together, all mythologies were real and the past would still have a modern twist aesthetic, that we'd see in shows like Merlin and again I think serves as the basis for the fantasy worlds in Once Upon A Time too. 

Obviously no one would say that Once was derivative of Xena, but it definitely followed in foot steps in those respects, either directly or indirectly.  

[Cherry Pepsi Maxil]

Mar 15, 2024 23:54:19 GMT burrunjor said:

Mar 15, 2024 21:14:07 GMT iank said:

Buffy is on Disney+, Maxil.
Sadly.

Honestly just get Buffy or Xena or any other show you want on physical media. I know it's annoying that you might have to wait to save up to buy it, but in the long it's better as then it's yours for good and not on the whim of some stupid copyright bullshit where the rights switch to so and so. 

There's always the danger of blind buying. If I buy Buffy on DVD and I'm not a big fan of it (or I like it but won't watch it again) I'm £60 out of pocket. 

I'm pro physical media and I'm compelled to own everything I like, but personally I'd rather stream a show to see if I like it before paying big money.

[burrunjor]

Apr 9, 2024 20:39:42 GMT Cherry Pepsi Maxil said:

Mar 15, 2024 23:54:19 GMT burrunjor said:

Honestly just get Buffy or Xena or any other show you want on physical media. I know it's annoying that you might have to wait to save up to buy it, but in the long it's better as then it's yours for good and not on the whim of some stupid copyright bullshit where the rights switch to so and so. 

There's always the danger of blind buying. If I buy Buffy on DVD and I'm not a big fan of it (or I like it but won't watch it again) I'm £60 out of pocket. 

I'm pro physical media and I'm compelled to own everything I like, but personally I'd rather stream a show to see if I like it before paying big money.

Smart move. You're completely right that sometimes when recommending shows on DVD we tend to forget, maybe they won't like it as much as we do LOL. Even if they don't hate it, it's still a big commitment in terms of money and even just time to get something in its entirety. 

In that respect streaming is better.

Honestly nobody ever gives Xena a chance? I try recommending it a lot and nobody ever watches it LOL.

Fair enough it's a bit of a niche show (despite having been popular) and some of its humour is very broad, but still, people I've recommended it to include a guy whose favourite leads, artists and people in general usually have to have xx chromosomes like your good self Maxil LOL. My friends Golden Age Geek and Claudia Boleyn who both LOVE campy inaccurate fantasy series like Merlin, and REALLY love troubled, unpredictable, misunderstood, morally grey, badass female characters with tragic backstories like Faith and Morgana (also Claudia loves female led and LGBTQ series like Umbrella Academy.) Rushy whose favourite Doctor, the 9th Doctor was strongly inspired by Xena in many ways and loves all the Raimi stuff, and finally Iank who loves campy as f*ck genre shows and female led shows and 90s/00s genre shows, many of which were inspired by Xena like Buffy. 

I thought I was on safe ground with those people at least, but I don't think anyone has ever checked it out. Fair enough you don't always check out shows on people online's recommendations, but honestly I've had better luck recommending series other than Xena. Even if the people thought they were absolute shit LOL. I don't know maybe it's karma for Sam Raimi and Rob Tapert similarly not giving Venom and Carnage a chance when those two villains were perfect for them LOL?

In all seriousness it's a good show, though as per usual with most American genre shows, its fifth season is absolute wank (apart from the cool opening with Callisto and fittingly a badass, scary Alti episode that's like a Greek version of Nightmare on Elm Street.) I think Xena season 5 might be the worst 5th season? It's certainly worse than Buffy season 5, but I'm not sure if it plumbs the depths of Once Upon A Time season 5. I'd say both are pretty shit for the same reasons. Bad misuse of greek gods, and some f*cked up morals LOL.  Is Xena molly coddling her bitch daughter worse than us being okay with a kindly old granny going to hell and an abusive mother going to heaven because for one day she let the two girls she abused play together? I can't decide LOL. 

[iank]

I could never get on with Game of Thrones. I watched the whole first season and the only characters that grabbed me in any way were Peter Dinklage's character and Arya. Not enough to be arsed to keep watching frankly.
I'm sure you could at least get Buffy season 1 reasonably cheap from somewhee esp given it's a shorter one (just 12 eps) than the rest, Maxil.

[burrunjor]

Apr 9, 2024 21:22:05 GMT iank said:

I could never get on with Game of Thrones. I watched the whole first season and the only characters that grabbed me in any way were Peter Dinklage's character and Arya. Not enough to be arsed to keep watching frankly.
I'm sure you could at least get Buffy season 1 reasonably cheap from somewhee esp given it's a shorter one (just 12 eps) than the rest, Maxil.

I was talking about Xena, not Game of Thrones Iank (unless you were replying to Rushy.)

Xena and Game of Thrones are definitely NOT comparable. Their fandoms don't get along, though that's mostly GOT fans. They absolutely trashed Xena along with pretty much every other fantasy show, though Xena got it the worst. It became the punching bag of "hahaha to think this is what fantasy shows used to be, compared to this masterpiece now."  Like I said it was like Star Trek TOS fans towards every other sci fi show (bar Doctor Who) in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s.

Granted if you don't care about fandom bullshit which I know you don't that doesn't matter, but even then they are very different things so not liking one, doesn't mean you won't enjoy the other. Game of Thrones was an ensemble piece, took itself much more seriously (though that wouldn't be hard LOL.) It also didn't draw from as wide a range of mythologies, took place in fictional kingdoms etc.

I'll say to Rushy meanwhile that I admit to perhaps being a bit hard on Game of Thrones. It wasn't AWFUL, but yeah I honestly don't understand why it was so f*cking hyped? I mean I wouldn't even hype Buffy up to the point where every vampire thing is deemed automatically inferior. Those kinds of fans always end up putting you off the show.

Like I said Star Trek TOS fans were the absolute worst for that back in the day. All the obnoxious crap from guys like David Gerrold of "they couldn't understand why their show wasn't in the same league as Star Trek TOS." And stuff about how "Star Trek was achieving so much more in the genre than other series." Or "Star Trek saved black people" LOL. It all put me off Star Trek for quite a while. 

I was like, okay to start with when it comes to actual sci fi stories and concepts, Classic Doctor Who leaves Star Trek in the dust. To be fair it leaves every other sci fi show in the dust in that respect, NOT because it was so intelligent, but simply because its flexible format and longevity allowed it to explore more sci fi concepts than any other, but still. I didn't hear DW fans being such obnoxious c*nts to other series over that (their problem was going too much the other way.) Also as far as being serious sci fi goes Star Trek actually was the campiest of the serious shows. Again Lost in Space became a comedy so that was intentional, Star Trek meanwhile tried to write a serious story about space hippies. Also ironically when it came to politics I think Star Trek TOS sucked. Apart from Balance of Terror, all of its political stories honestly are written like modern day junk such as Supergirl, New Who etc. Also whilst it does deserve praise for what it did for the civil rights movement, the Original series views on women are f*cking hideous LOL. They are about 30 years behind Doctor Who and even Lost in Space! It was like Ben Steed was the script editor on TOS LOL. 

Still that said I did eventually return to TOS and became a fan again as I think there was in spite of all that crap, enough under the surface to appreciate, where as Game of Thrones, now that the hype has gone I just can't see anything particularly unique about it? Again other than being really violent and having tits, I fail to see what makes it the "adult" fantasy show. 

To be honest for all its campiness I think Callisto is a far more nuanced character than any in Game of Thrones.