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Post by rushy on Feb 2, 2024 14:38:05 GMT
The Godfather meanwhile is not only up its own arse, pretentious and boring, but portrays some of the worst, most cowardly scum on earth in a romantic way. Is that all you got from it? The message I ascertained from that trilogy (or at least the first two films; the third is crap) wasn't "The Mob is brilliant and romantic". Instead, it's closer to: "The American Dream is superficially seductive, but also sordid, corrupt, and thoroughly destructive for the human soul". I concur with this. There's no need to tear down one of the greatest films ever made. Anyone who walks away from it thinking that it promotes mob life is being blind. Especially if we take Godfather II into account. Michael is miserable as hell. |
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Post by burrunjor on Feb 2, 2024 14:45:40 GMT
The Godfather meanwhile is not only up its own arse, pretentious and boring, but portrays some of the worst, most cowardly scum on earth in a romantic way. Is that all you got from it? The message I ascertained from that trilogy (or at least the first two films; the third is crap) wasn't "The Mob is brilliant and romantic". Instead, it's closer to: "The American Dream is superficially seductive, but also sordid, corrupt, and thoroughly destructive for the human soul". Michael, ostensibly the trilogy's protagonist, is initially principled, shy and reasonably amicable, and wants nothing to do with the Mob. He makes it clear to Kay (herself one of the only innocent characters in the first film) that his father, Vito, threatened (via a henchman) to blow a bandleader's brains out, delineating that: "That's my family, Kay. It's not me". Indeed, Vito's mere refusal to trade in narcotics was enough to create a feud so strong that his other son, Sonny (himself hotheaded, thoughtless and prone to outburst), gets shot to pieces by Mob rivals, contributing to Vito eventually dropping dead in his garden. Is that "romantic"? After Michael does become actively involved as the family Don- and hence the Mob- his initial principles evaporate and he becomes a monster. He lies to his wife on a regular basis, controls and neglects his sister Connie, assassinates his older brother (and knowingly times the assassination for after his Mother passes away to avoid family contention), and in turn, becomes isolated, mournful and bitter, upholding a failed family empire. And that's without mentioning the fact that most (if not all) political figures are portrayed in the second film (encapsulated most explicitly by Hyman Roth) as vacuous, corrupt, unprincipled liars. Doesn't that sound wonderful? (!) To be honest Vito dying in his garden playing with someone close to him is a lot better way to go than he deserved or indeed many of us will. I'd take that to being covered in my own shit. Meanwhile, whilst the film makes them flawed yes, they are portrayed as a lot more romantic and tragic and sympathetic than the low level, grubby scumbags they actually are. You can't deny that people ended up getting a more romantic view of the mob as tragic outlaws thanks to crap like this. |
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Post by burrunjor on Feb 2, 2024 15:21:46 GMT
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Post by Bernard Marx on Feb 2, 2024 15:46:08 GMT
I’d take that to being covered in my own shit |
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Post by rushy on Feb 2, 2024 15:51:39 GMT
Meanwhile as for anyone thinking it made the Mob more sympathetic being blind, well tell that to the Mob themselves. Because the mob are really such great judges of art and character. |
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Post by burrunjor on Feb 2, 2024 17:08:49 GMT
Meanwhile as for anyone thinking it made the Mob more sympathetic being blind, well tell that to the Mob themselves. Because the mob are really such great judges of art and character. They also tend to be quite prickly about criticism in case you didn't notice and are not happy when they feel they are being disrespected. |
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Post by burrunjor on Feb 2, 2024 17:18:31 GMT
I’d take that to being covered in my own shit It's just a comment on how sadly that's how most of us are going to die, ill, wasting away in a bed (if we're lucky to see old age) rather than in control of our faculties and playing around with kids in a sunny day. Meanwhile don't try and compare me to Mary Whitehouse. I am NOT trying to get the film banned or say it destroyed our society. I think it simply has too romantic a view, covers up some of the Mafia's crimes and whilst yes shows them do bad things, also tries to frame it in a lot of cases as being from a more sympathetic background "for the family" and in some cases casts young, handsome actors to portray them more as rogues. It's nowhere near the level of Citizen Kane which does not portray its philanthropist as a glamorous, roguish, tough guy character. This isn't simply about the Mafia enjoying the movie anyway. Hell for all I know the mob loved Star Trek, but in this case they think that it shows their organisation in a more glamorous light than past portrayals. You can compare it the cowboy films of the 30s and 40s that tried to do the same for them. The Dollar movies meanwhile are a better contrast, as whilst the man with no name is a bit romantic, the rest of the cowboys are shown to be grubby, filthy, degenerate, missing teeth and doing shady things etc. It provides nuance but not glamour to the old west. Meanwhile I think Top Gun Maverick was overrated crap as well. I like the Lady Gaga theme, but that's it. |
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Post by mott1 on Feb 2, 2024 18:59:12 GMT
It's just a comment on how sadly that's how most of us are going to die, ill, wasting away in a bed (if we're lucky to see old age) rather than in control of our faculties and playing around with kids in a sunny day. Meanwhile don't try and compare me to Mary Whitehouse. I am NOT trying to get the film banned or say it destroyed our society. I think it simply has too romantic a view, covers up some of the Mafia's crimes and whilst yes shows them do bad things, also tries to frame it in a lot of cases as being from a more sympathetic background "for the family" and in some cases casts young, handsome actors to portray them more as rogues. It's nowhere near the level of Citizen Kane which does not portray its philanthropist as a glamorous, roguish, tough guy character. This isn't simply about the Mafia enjoying the movie anyway. Hell for all I know the mob loved Star Trek, but in this case they think that it shows their organisation in a more glamorous light than past portrayals. You can compare it the cowboy films of the 30s and 40s that tried to do the same for them. The Dollar movies meanwhile are a better contrast, as whilst the man with no name is a bit romantic, the rest of the cowboys are shown to be grubby, filthy, degenerate, missing teeth and doing shady things etc. It provides nuance but not glamour to the old west. Meanwhile I think Top Gun Maverick was overrated crap as well. I like the Lady Gaga theme, but that's it. It's the film equivalents of The Beatles, in some ways - hard to find people who actively dislike them and not always popular when they do! For my money the first two are among the greatest films of all time (and I haven't watched either in absolutely ages), whilst Pacino's performance is the finest I've seen given by any actor in G2. They're on a par with something like Macbeth rather than more standard entertainment - how a once noble man reluctantly gains power but at a hideous cost to himself as well as to others. The cinematography, the score, the casting - it all just clicks. Seeing these films as a youngster - perhaps younger than I should have been! - really drives home how awful that world can be, G1 in particular. Just going to the market for fruit leaves the seemingly all-powerful Vito open to assassination, whilst the killings are genuinely drawn-out, uncomfortable and shocking rather than the wise-cracking scenes in previous gangster flicks. G2 almost felt like another movie entirely, with its focus on Vito's rise and Michael's near-fall, and far more 'political'. But the decline in the Michael-Fredo relationship, which seemed almost a side-issue in G1 when they were rowing over Moe Green, has one of the saddest, bleakest finales imaginable. Fredo might not be a 'good' man but like his much stronger father part of him just wanted to move on and love his family. By their respective endings - Vito dead in front of his grandchild, Sonny riddled with gunfire, Fredo shot in a way that from his body language even his killer (Al Neri) seems to find unnecessary, Kay frozen out, Connie lied to and Michael completely alone - the lifestyle has been anything but glamorised. And to be fair even Godfather fans largely agree G3 is seriously flawed and a major step down (apart from Antonio Banderas's performance and the classic 'they pull me back in' speech, of course)! I also accept both its predecessors are heavy-going, which is why I tend to see them as a rare treat. |
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Post by burrunjor on Feb 2, 2024 21:24:54 GMT
Personally I think Scarface is Pacino's best performance and a better representation of gangsters.
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Post by rushy on Feb 3, 2024 1:02:13 GMT
They also tend to be quite prickly about criticism in case you didn't notice and are not happy when they feel they are being disrespected. You're forgetting historical context here. The mafia had never been portrayed remotely accurately in film before. That alone - that they weren't just the butt of a joke - was enough to appease them. They took Michael Corleone's rise to power (and Vito's in the second film) on face value. The mafia were also positive about The Sopranos, a show that deconstructs the glamour of the mafia arguably more than any work of art ever made. They completely missed how viciously David Chase loathes them, focusing only on Tony Soprano's charisma and oneliners. Chase was so irritated by the audience's support of Tony that he had to make him a cartoonishly evil scumbag in season 6 just for regular people to notice "oh yeah, he's evil". But that doesn't mean the story very obviously didn't point in that direction before. The Sopranos even parodied the mafia's love of The Godfather, and how much they missed Coppola's true intentions with the film. |
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Post by rushy on Feb 3, 2024 8:34:47 GMT
The Godfather Part II is overrated in my eyes. Pacino and Cazale are spellbinding together, but that Fredo storyline and the transformation of Vito's regime from a traditionalist family-oriented business to pure capitalism is really the only thing people ever remember.
All the stuff with Hyman Roth and Clemenza 2.0 is extremely convoluted. And while Vito's rise to power is a neat contrast to Michael's fall, it doesn't really tell us anything we didn't already know from the first film.
Part III is pretty bad, but I've become really fond of Pacino's strange performance, and of course it has the confession sequence, which easily stands up to the best scenes from the first two. So I consider it a guilty pleasure.
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Post by RobFilth on Feb 5, 2024 0:20:26 GMT
Getting back to the original thread question, I think the worst thing which can be said about Eric Saward at the time was that he was a cheap mans Robert Holmes, where as compared to Russell T Fathead, he IS Robert f*cking Holmes.
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Post by rushy on Feb 5, 2024 4:16:42 GMT
I think the worst thing which can be said about Eric Saward at the time was that he was a cheap mans Robert Holmes I can say much worser things about Eric Saward. Can't abide by what RTD is currently doing, but I'll take his first era over seasons 19-22 any day. Even the Doctor/Rose romance is much more palatable than Six/Peri. |
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Post by RobFilth on Feb 6, 2024 5:32:51 GMT
I think the worst thing which can be said about Eric Saward at the time was that he was a cheap mans Robert Holmes I can say much worser things about Eric Saward. Can't abide by what RTD is currently doing, but I'll take his first era over seasons 19-22 any day. Even the Doctor/Rose romance is much more palatable than Six/Peri. Sawards interpretation the Doctor may have more of a cynical ruthless streak coming after Williams/Adams cosy buffoonery, but this is far more in line with the character as originally devised than a sleazy lothario wanting to get his rocks off with a crass selfish thicko young enough to be his daughter. |
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Post by rushy on Feb 6, 2024 7:45:23 GMT
Only if you cross at cynical ruthless streak and type in shouty colorblind buffoon
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