|
|
Post by Spark Doll King on Feb 18, 2024 21:41:13 GMT
What burrunjor said
|
|
|
|
Post by rushy on Feb 18, 2024 21:49:51 GMT
Then you're being deliberately obtuse, which seems to be the only tactic people have for defending New Who, pretend the other persons argument is nonsensical so you don't have to answer it. Anything but actually defend it. That's an unfair assumption, I'm just not overly familiar with Godzilla history. I've seen 3-4 movies, and the James Rolfe retrospective. |
|
|
|
Post by burrunjor on Feb 18, 2024 22:12:56 GMT
Then you're being deliberately obtuse, which seems to be the only tactic people have for defending New Who, pretend the other persons argument is nonsensical so you don't have to answer it. Anything but actually defend it. That's an unfair assumption, I'm just not overly familiar with Godzilla history. I've seen 3-4 movies, and the James Rolfe retrospective. Yeah sorry looking back I was being a bit of an asshole there. You don't always know how you come off or write something down in the moment and forget to check it over, not just for spelling mistakes. Also I am used to that type of defense. Culfy from GB drove me up the wall with that. Anyway yeah point still stands, it's more that both are big 20th century icons which were revived as in name only sequels/remakes, but the Big G fans made it clear that wasn't what they wanted, DW fans were too insecure because of the bullying it got from people and as a result, Godzilla came back properly, whilst the Doctor has been trapped in this state for 20 years now. To be fair in name only remakes are not always bad in themselves, though I'd always prefer an original. Still they can work, like Elementary that was absolutely an in name only remake of Holmes. However in Godzilla and Who's case those unfaithful versions came at important points. The 98 Godzilla was the Big G's mainstream introduction to the west, and this was DW's chance to come back after its biggest hiatus and prove the naysayers wrong. Just to be clear though I don't blame or have anything against ironically New Who fans. I think that's often been where we've gone wrong on the hive. Often making out they are idiots (that's a dick thing to do anyway.) Still new who fans were introduced to it via the revival, and so who can blame them for thinking of that as DW. I mean it's the same for any long running character, people in the 50s would be introduced to Dracula via Lee, NOT Lugosi and again that's fine. However again both can stand apart, and still be enjoyed by people who just enjoy the overall idea of Dracula. It's the classic fans however who sold out that annoy me as again, they are the ones who actually destroyed the franchise as they were the ones who made out that show could only come back this way, who tried to make classic who fit with the new stuff because they didn't have the confidence etc. They will rot in the fires of the Destroyers dimension from Battlefield LOL. |
|
|
|
Post by cyberhat on Feb 19, 2024 10:00:24 GMT
The good thing about threads like this is we're not alone now. The world is starting to agree Nupoo is terrible.
|
|
|
|
Post by rushy on Feb 19, 2024 10:30:40 GMT
Yeah, I think RTD making the 60th largely about his own era eroded a lot of goodwill.
That, plus people are just tired of the show retconning itself for no reason every other season.
|
|
|
|
Post by burrunjor on Feb 19, 2024 11:11:19 GMT
Yeah, but it's not like it's an incredibly complex formula. You have your human story, you have your monster that has a few recognisable attributes. And your audiences will barely care if the human story gets mucked up so long as their monsters are represented well. It's basically just a big budget Friday the 13th In actual fact I'd say the makers of the monsterverse had a bigger uphill battle with Godzilla than RTD did with DW in 2005. Consider the following. Godzilla WAS more overtly camp than DW was. The campiest classic DW stories are most of the time only ridiculous because of the effects, production values and some of the acting. Consider Horns of Nimon for instance? With better CGI and the director telling the actor to tone it down, whilst it wouldn't be an all time classic it would not be a ridiculous story at all. Godzilla as much as I love it DID have more ridiculous plots, and really went to town in deliberately being absurd. Take a look at these clips. Also the idea of a dinosaur fighting to protect humanity, of him having "allies" and even friends so to speak and of giant monsters being controlled by aliens is very hard to take seriously in a modern film. More so than an alien with a mysterious past and a more whimsical nature. On top of that Godzilla is a much more limited formula and therefore is harder to do anything new with than DW where all of time and space is your Oyster. Finally on top of all that, Godzilla has NEVER been mainstream in the west where the Monsterverse's primary audience was. Yes most people know the name, and have a reasonable image of what he looks like, but in terms of having actually seen a film? I'd wager that even on a board like this very few people will have seen the Japanese Godzilla movies. On top of that whilst they weren't seen as a joke, they were kind of looked on as B-movies. Fun for what they were, but probably not something you'd be desperate to see, or bring a date to see etc by most people. Meanwhile with DW, despite some elitist twats kicking it when it was down, it was still extremely popular. It was comparable to say Batman in between the George Clooney movie and Batman Begins, IE something which some (unfairly in DW's case) felt had come to a bad end, but was such a huge character most people still had fond memories of at least one of its iterations, be it Adam West, Tim Burton, Hartnell, Pertwee etc, and therefore nostalgia could always be used to bring the general public back. On top of that it also had a massive fanbase made up of people from all ages in the west, again bigger than Godzilla's was in the west obviously. In 2002 just three years before the revival, DW topped a nation wide poll for which old tv show does the general public want to see return, and the majority of people voting were under 20! Do you think Godzilla would have won a similar poll in either Britain or America for which old film character would you like to see return in 2014? DW videos and DVDs were also best sellers throughout the 90s and 00s, we can't say the same for old Godzilla movies in the west, many of which sadly weren't even released over here. Yet in spite of that RTD was the one who had to throw out so many defining aspects of the Doctors character, and what the show was about because the original was such a joke? Meanwhile the Monsterverse guys were not only able to include all of Godzilla's defining traits, but they were even able to adapt some of the silly aspects too. For instance it was an old tradition in some of the later sillier Godzilla movies to have people (usually adorable children, or gorgeous Japanese babes) wave and say goodbye and thank you to Godzilla as he walked away into the sunset. It was so infamous, even Rugrats would parody it with Reptar lots of times LOL. Personally though I always loved it as a kid and would even cheer Godzilla on myself, it's something that I wouldn't have thought would have worked in a more "serious" Godzilla movie. However the Monsterverse guys still managed to include this tradition in a way that actually did feel more natural and part of the story, because again they really had a respect and love for the source material. They kept one of the silliest cliches of the original and made it an awesome, badass, even somewhat moving scene that 11 million people have watched. RTD meanwhile couldn't even keep the basic f*cking look of the Doctor, his sexuality, his relationship with his archenemy the Master, a large part of the type of adventures he went on, the origins of another one of his enemies, the Cybermen, the Brigadier, his motivation for travelling, the Time Lords etc, because he thought they were all crap, embarrassing and outdated. I think that says it all. PS I'm not saying the Monsterverse is perfect. Personally I don't like their anti Dinosaurs policy. For some inexplicable reason they seem to hate Dinosaurs and try and cut them out of every story they can, like Kong Skull Island, that had Kong fighting other kinds of monsters none of which were as effective as the Dinosaurs. It seems to be their mission to replace Dinosaurs from all the great stories they've been a part of. At the Earth's Core, King Kong and even the cryptid Mokele Mbembe in the Monsterverse are devoid of any Dinosaurs. They also plan to do a version of 1 million years BC without any Dinosaurs too. Honestly did a T. rex eat the head of the company's mother or something? Where is this insane hatred coming from? I also HATE Godzilla's redesign. His head is too small. It looks ridiculous. I also want a Godzilla that embraces his Tyrannosaur origins too. Kaiju Samurai's Godzilla Neo was the perfect redesign for him, as it made him look like a mutated retro Tyrannosaur. Also sadly whilst it's a good film overall, Godzilla 2014 is in some cases appallingly directed. It's so dark that it's hard to make out what the f*ck is going on in some of the fight scenes. When I saw it in the cinema it was awesome, but on DVD on a smaller screen sadly it wasn't as good for that reason. In the case of 21st century DW meanwhile, it's not even that I have criticisms of the actual stories. It literally is just..... make it DW. That's all I want! Get the bare minimum right first and then we can explore what we would have wanted from this version of the character. Sadly however making it like DW it seems is completely beyond the Fitzroy Crowd. It always has been and they have always come up with an excuse why not. Today it's old who was sexist, abelist and racist, yesterday it was DW is all about change and by not making it even resemble DW they are being more faithful to it than you anoraks can understand, and before that it was that DW fans on average are illiterate imbeciles. Here Andy: All-Consuming Fire is a serious examination of the underside of Victorian society, I'll have you know.
Steven: With Sherlock Holmes in it.Paul: The defining factor for our critics seems to be 'how like bad television is it?' It really pisses me off. There was a review in TV Zone recently of Kate Orman's new book which was entirely based on that premise, how like bad television is this book?David: And it failed.
Paul: Well of course it failed.David: Set Piece is not bad television.
Steven: But that's not what you want. My memories of Doctor Who are based on bad television that I enjoyed at the time. It could get me really burned saying this, but Doctor Who is actually aimed at 11-year-olds. Don't overstress it, but it's true. Now what the New Adventures have done, sometimes successfully, is to try and reinterpret that for adults, which has involved a completely radical revision of the Seventh Doctor that never appeared on television. That is brilliant.
Paul: There are big sections of fandom that I appreciate and love... Female fandom in all its forms has been consistently more intelligent than male fandom across the globe. Gay fandom in all its forms has, again, been consistently more intelligent than straight fandom. There's a liberal, American, college-based fandom too. When you come down to it, our central audience doesn't read. And that's a major problem for us... how do we address a new series of books to an audience who don't know what good books should be like?David: The New Adventures audience wants books like bad television. But surely the Missing Adventures are designed to cater to that kitsch nostalgia-driven audience? And you wrote one of them, Paul!
Paul: Yes, I wrote one, and it was a most unpleasant experience. The Missing Adventures are there for that base kind of taste. Surely that should free us up a bit more now?Again the idea that people who like the classic era would want these types to take over the series, shows the stunning lack of confidence they sadly had as a result of the bullying the show got. Panel show c*nts be damned. |
|
|
|
Post by rushy on Feb 19, 2024 19:49:10 GMT
they genuinely deserved every second of torment they endured, and then some. Wtf |
|
|
|
Post by cyberhat on Feb 19, 2024 23:59:57 GMT
The thought never seems to occur to Cornell and his ilk that maybe it wasn't Doctor Who's fault that they were bullied at school. That maybe they were just such unbearable pieces of shit that they genuinely deserved every second of torment they endured, and then some. It's someting like that almost certainly. I've a theory about nupoo being caused by the local group mentality back in the day. Starting fan heirachies by giving themselves titles like President or whatever. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2024 23:08:44 GMT
The thought never seems to occur to Cornell and his ilk that maybe it wasn't Doctor Who's fault that they were bullied at school. That maybe they were just such unbearable pieces of shit that they genuinely deserved every second of torment they endured, and then some. This tbh. If you've ever been in a real school that didn't exist in a cartoon or a movie, you know that genuinely nice people don't get picked on. This isn't to say it's ever justified but most of the people who were picked on at my school were antisocial, stuck up or just completely unaware. There are obviously exceptions but bright, genuinely kind, sociable people are rarely if ever bullied. |
|
|
|
Post by rushy on Feb 20, 2024 23:19:43 GMT
You two are both incredibly f*cked up. "Maybe bullied people deserved it"
Haven't seen something this morally bankrupt in ages.
|
|
|
|
Post by cyberhat on Feb 21, 2024 5:19:31 GMT
This tbh. If you've ever been in a real school that didn't exist in a cartoon or a movie, you know that genuinely nice people don't get picked on. This isn't to say it's ever justified but most of the people who were picked on at my school were antisocial, stuck up or just completely unaware. There are obviously exceptions but bright, genuinely kind, sociable people are rarely if ever bullied. If you believe this, you have never been to a real school. And why do socially awkward or unaware people deserve to be bullied?
At my real school, pupils were bullied for such heinous behaviours such as having a parent that just died, having the wrong skin colour or any human characteristic that might be considered unique.
I mean screw RTD and Cornell, but screw this more.
|
|
|
|
Post by cyberhat on Feb 21, 2024 5:38:59 GMT
You two are both incredibly f*cked up. "Maybe bullied people deserved it" Haven't seen something this morally bankrupt in ages. There's a difference between consequences for being obnoxious and unprovoked bullying. That much I agree with Yak. Also, the one responsibility bullying victims have is not to push the responsiblity for the bullying onto a third party. Remember around the time of the original nupoo, seeing someone in a comments section writing something along the lines of:
How I dealt with bullying in the playground
Bully - You're a twat for liking Doctor Who Me - Get lost, I think it's great
How RTD and Moffat dealt with bullying in the playground
Bully - You're a twat for liking Doctor Who
RTD/Moffat - Oh your imperial majesty! I do apologise most grovellingly. I shall seek to take over the show one day just so I can appeal exclusively to people with your most glorious mindset!
|
|
|
|
Post by burrunjor on Feb 21, 2024 9:29:08 GMT
This tbh. If you've ever been in a real school that didn't exist in a cartoon or a movie, you know that genuinely nice people don't get picked on. This isn't to say it's ever justified but most of the people who were picked on at my school were antisocial, stuck up or just completely unaware. There are obviously exceptions but bright, genuinely kind, sociable people are rarely if ever bullied. If you believe this, you have never been to a real school. And why do socially awkward or unaware people deserve to be bullied?
At my real school, pupils were bullied for such heinous behaviours such as having a parent that just died, having the wrong skin colour or any human characteristic that might be considered unique.
I mean screw RTD and Cornell, but screw this more.
Never agreed with a post more in my life than yours Cyberhat. Bullying is a very serious issue that should never be trivialised. To be fair to Clockwork though I don't think he was saying bullied kids deserve it in general. I think he was just saying that Cornell is such a condescending git, who constantly calls people sexist, talks down to them, arrogantly assumes everyone is stupid but him, and is himself a cliquey bully, that maybe that's why lots of people hated him? Again though I wouldn't make any assumptions about his young life. For all I know he wasn't even bullied. To me his and others self loathing fanboyism doesn't stem from childhood anyway. It's more of a elitist thing about "DW doesn't hold up compared to other old tv from my childhood, like I Claudius because snobby critics don't like it, and it's not hot and sexy like Buffy the Vampire Slayer so it's unkewwwwwwwl." As you say anything unique can get you picked on in school. Even if DW is popular at the time when you are at school, (which it would have been when Paul was at school in the 1970s) if you happen to be the only person in your class who watches it, which can still happen with a popular show, that can still get you made fun of. I used to pretend I didn't like Buffy to fit in, because everybody in my class, or all the boys at least thought it was a stupid, girly show and that was at the height of its popularity. Schools mean nothing that way, because they are stupid, tribal, jungles even more so than the real world. It was the fact that DW was again being essentially picked on in the adult world, by the media elites, panel show twats etc that sadly made its fandom collectively lose their mojo, which Cornell and other chancers like RTD then exploited with their bastardised remake. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2024 22:55:03 GMT
I broadly agree with you guys tbh, but I was pretty high last night and to be fair that's the experience I had when I was at school
|
|
|
|
Post by henshin on Feb 22, 2024 3:11:56 GMT
Lost me at "And regeneration isn’t important..."
I mean, it only prevented the show's cancellation...twice.
|
|
