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Post by burrunjor on Jan 18, 2024 9:10:51 GMT
I'm not sure how fans have the nerve to trash Colin's outfit and celebrate Eccleston's when his was literally just a leather jacket and a shite jumper they had probably nicked from Elstree. One is actual clothes. The other is a clown costume. I don't see how fans would not have the nerve.  The End of Time's only fan Shamelessly. I've yet to see anyone elaborate on what's wrong about it other than they don't like John Simm playing the Master as a crazed lunatic, when the whole point is that he's at his lowest and most self-deprecating. Or that they don't like that the story treats regeneration as death, despite it being an infinitely more compelling take than Moffat treating it as flu. Meanwhile, Twin Dilemma suffers from excessively poor costume and set design, and Colin doing amateur theatrics. I've already gone through it above. |
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Post by rushy on Jan 18, 2024 9:14:48 GMT
Yeah, but I don't accept "Wilf's blubbing" being anything less than some of the best scenes in the show's history. I absolutely adore him and Tennant together, and the way the Doctor adopts him as his dad despite being much older himself is such a lovely way of showing his respect.
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Post by burrunjor on Jan 18, 2024 9:47:26 GMT
Yeah, but I don't accept "Wilf's blubbing" being anything less than some of the best scenes in the show's history. I absolutely adore him and Tennant together, and the way the Doctor adopts him as his dad despite being much older himself is such a lovely way of showing his respect. No, sorry it is just more proof that Tennant and RTD despite being fanboys didn't give a shit about the character. Davison and Smith both played it as old men in young men's bodies because both were aware that the Doctor began as an old guy and had many lives in between that and them. They acted opposite people who were older as old friends like River, Tasha and the Brig. (Even if River was still an inappropriate character, at least they got that bit right.) Tennant should have done the same with Wilf, with the two developing a rapport as old soldiers who understood each other that way, but again because RTD and Tennant think theirs is the only version that matters (as evidenced by the 60th) and want theirs to be a little bubble separate from the others (as seen with bi regeneration.) Then Tennant's was written as a guy in his 30s talking to an 80 year old. Also hearing Wilf go "you're the most wonderful man I don't want you to die" is such painful character shilling, and usual OTT stuff from RTD. Honestly End of Time is just RTD's ego unchecked, again much like how many of the worst elements of Twin Dilemma are JNT's ego unchecked. |
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Post by rushy on Jan 18, 2024 17:45:32 GMT
I feel like Padme in Revenge of the Sith lmao "you're going down a path I can't follow!"
How someone looks at scenes as beautiful as that and thinks about ego instead of the masterclass of acting and writing going on, I will never understand lol
EDIT: I especially love the Doctor's attempt to convert the Master, and the latter realising how shit his life is and kind of considering. A powerful moment, and I love that they harken back to it later at the standoff, with the Master looking genuinely terrified when he thinks the Doctor might truly kill him. There's so much going between the lines. It's some of the best Doctor/Master material ever. Possibly THE best.
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Post by iank on Jan 18, 2024 20:23:30 GMT
The End of Time is just a godawful script. The opening monologue alone is some of the worst dialogue ever written and conclusive proof of Bidmead's "first draft" allegation. Then there's the fact it's wildly self-indulgent, the Master is terrible, it's filled with lameass copouts such as Donna surviving, the stuff with the Ood is again awfully written but also completely f*cking irrelevant, the Master resurrection scene is again staggeringly badly written, there is basically no plot in two hours...
Do we really need to go on?
"I don't want to go." What a summation of this whiny pussyass Doctor.
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Post by rushy on Jan 18, 2024 20:42:32 GMT
Do we really need to go on? Yes, you've not said one correct thing thus far  |
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Post by burrunjor on Jan 18, 2024 21:05:01 GMT
The End of Time is just a godawful script. The opening monologue alone is some of the worst dialogue ever written and conclusive proof of Bidmead's "first draft" allegation. Then there's the fact it's wildly self-indulgent, the Master is terrible, it's filled with lameass copouts such as Donna surviving, the stuff with the Ood is again awfully written but also completely f*cking irrelevant, the Master resurrection scene is again staggeringly badly written, there is basically no plot in two hours... Do we really need to go on? "I don't want to go." What a summation of this whiny pussyass Doctor. The Master being brought back through black magic is f*cking hysterical. It's incredible to think that we ended up missing John Simm though when Michelle Gomez came along. For a while I actually thought Simm was a good Master because of Missy, but yeah that was just because he wasn't as bad as what came after. I will say I liked Simm in his first two episodes, and his first Moffat episode, but the run from Last of the Time Lords to End of Time part 2 turn him into a ridiculous villain. I do agree with Rushy that his redemption is reasonably well done in End of Time. I like the way it's left open ended if he was doing to repay the Doctor or just for vengeance. Also coming face to face with the man who ruined his life is enough to penetrate even the Masters arrogance and so he finally regrets what he became. However I HATE the Doctor telling the Master he could be so beautiful and it would be his honour to travel with him. FFS the Master has destroyed a quarter of the universe! He's killed the Doctor himself, his friends, and the loved ones of his friends, innocent men, women, children, f*cking old grannies and puppies and kittens all in front of the Doctor! Why oh why would he view him as anything but a monster? Why oh f*cking why are fandom so desperate for the Doctor to still want to be friends with him? Like I said it would be like if someone wanted to still be friends with Hitler after the holocaust because they used to play tennis together. It's quite baffling. Their former friendship is mentioned ONCE, ONCE in ONE scene in The Sea Devils and apparently that must decide the entire dynamic between the Master and the Doctor for the new series? Never mind all the development that happened since where the Master became his most evil foe and killed trillions of innocent people! It's insane? |
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Post by iank on Jan 18, 2024 21:20:17 GMT
I suspect it's done solely to make the fangirls cwy. Logic and reason? That's so 20th century and right-wing, grandad!
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Post by burrunjor on Jan 18, 2024 21:33:09 GMT
I suspect it's done solely to make the fangirls cwy. Logic and reason? That's so 20th century and right-wing, grandad! Thing is though it's the guys who were obsessed with that shit, Paul Cornell, Steven Moffat, RTD, Robert Shearman, Nicholas Briggs etc. They are brought it in even in the 90s. Why? It makes 0 sense. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2024 21:41:40 GMT
The Master is a piece of crap. I wonder what Ace or Nyssa thinks of the Doctor wanting the Master to travel with him.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2024 21:45:06 GMT
He kicked Adam out for that one thing, but he's quite happy to live with someone who has the blood of thousands on his hands.
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Post by rushy on Jan 18, 2024 22:03:40 GMT
He kicked Adam out for that one thing, but he's quite happy to live with someone who has the blood of thousands on his hands. Adam isn't his childhood friend and one of the only surviving Time Lords left. Yes, he's a hypocrite. Why shouldn't he be? |
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Post by rushy on Jan 18, 2024 22:06:51 GMT
The Master being brought back through black magic is f*cking hysterical What black magic? It's obviously meant to be a bit of Time Lord science that he gave them specifically for this reason, probably related to the potions on Karn. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2024 22:12:12 GMT
He kicked Adam out for that one thing, but he's quite happy to live with someone who has the blood of thousands on his hands. Adam isn't his childhood friend and one of the only surviving Time Lords left. Yes, he's a hypocrite. Why shouldn't he be? his childhood friend. Doesn't change the fact that he's a scumbag. Might as well have Richard Ramirez in the TARIS with him. |
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Post by burrunjor on Jan 18, 2024 22:33:54 GMT
Adam isn't his childhood friend and one of the only surviving Time Lords left. Yes, he's a hypocrite. Why shouldn't he be? his childhood friend. Doesn't change the fact that he's a scumbag. Might as well have Richard Ramirez in the TARIS with him. Exactly. You can have a character be a hypocrite, but that's taking it too far. The Doctors friendship with the Master is honestly like the future Dwarfers being friends with the Hitlers, because Adolf is actually quite charming when you don't talk politics with him. Technically it's worse. I mean obviously it's not as offensive from a real world perspective as Hitler was you know real, but in universe the Master has killed more people than Hitler, Gengis Khan, Paul Pott combined! The Doctor saying he's the only friend like me is like "The Hitlers are an absolute delight." Worse they then have him justify the Masters heinous crimes by comparing it to Bill eating a bacon sandwich! That is literally the Tereliptile's argument that the Doctor dismisses in The Visitation, not to mention the Daleks argument in Evil, and f*cking Sutekh's in Pyramid of Mars. The Doctor has lost the moral high ground to all of these villains with the Theta/Koschei stuff. Again though this is why New Who would have been better as either a remake or set in an alternate universe, as then at least their Master could have been more sympathetic, but trying to shove this shit into the character after the original destroys the Doctors status as a hero or a character you can root for in any way shape or form. Whilst Missy was unquestionably the worst for this, Simm started it and sadly The End of Time is one of the worst offenders pre Missy. "It would be my honour to travel with you". Whatever you do Doctor do NOT visit Tegan, Ace, Jo, Nyssa, or the Brig when travelling with this guy. Might be a bit awkward. BTW the same people who praise Missy's character development are often the ones who trash Attack of the Cybermen for how stupid it is that the Doctor thinks he may have misjudged Lytton. The guy who killed a few people, and was working for the Daleks when they had mind control techniques, and said it wasn't out of choice, and who sacrificed himself to save the Cryons and the earth. He definitely deserves harsher judgement than someone who destroyed entire planets and murdered little girls for fun. |
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