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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2023 21:57:27 GMT
Hell, even the YouTube chancers are saying it was a smash hit on the BBC just because it beat out I'm A Celeb. It was a ratings disaster; any apparent justification is an excuse. Numbers don't lie.
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Post by iank on Nov 29, 2023 22:00:19 GMT
Literally two million more people tuned in straight after for Strictly. The mainstream have tuned out, and apparently even Tennant wasn't enough.
I suspect the reality is that RTD left before the bubble would have burst anyway in the 2000s. His flashy shit would never have maintained popularity for much longer and I think he's shot himself in the foot coming back in more ways than one, exposing just what a one-trick flash in the pan he always was.
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Post by burrunjor on Nov 29, 2023 22:00:47 GMT
Hell, even the YouTube chancers are saying it was a smash hit on the BBC just because it beat out I'm A Celeb. It was a ratings disaster; any apparent justification is an excuse. Numbers don't lie. It was an absolute disaster ratings wise. It had every single ingredient to succeed. Prime time, shit ton of advertising, on before the biggest show of the week, (and remember watching it for a few mins counts.) The most popular Doctor we are told coming back, it being a huge anniversary, and a free advert on Children in Need. It should have got at least 7 million. To get barely out of the 4 millions is a joke and does not bode well for the future of the series. |
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Post by iank on Nov 29, 2023 22:03:11 GMT
Half of season 25 got better ratings tee hee.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2023 22:03:50 GMT
Literally two million more people tuned in straight after for Strictly. The mainstream have tuned out, and apparently even Tennant wasn't enough. I suspect the reality is that RTD left before the bubble would have burst anyway in the 2000s. His flashy shit would never have maintained popularity for much longer and I think he's shot himself in the foot coming back in more ways than one, exposing just what a one-trick flash in the pan he always was. The unsung workhorses of British TV ratings are middle-aged to elderly men and women who have nothing better to do. My dad watched it on Saturday and was pretty appalled; there's no chance of him tuning in this week, so it's highly likely that the ratings might even dip into Flux territory for Wild Blue Yonder. |
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Post by ClockworkOcean on Nov 30, 2023 11:32:11 GMT
I don't rate the drinker very highly these days, here he just rattles off a very weathered and watered down version of every generic cultural commentator has had to say about the Davros situation, and deliberately ignores that this was set in Davros' past pre-accident. If RTD hadn't made his stupid comments on Unleashed, Drinker would have looked ridiculous here. I blame RTD's inability to read the room for this kind of disingenuous yet fully intentional misdirection on Drinker's part. You don't actually have any basis to claim that this was set "pre-accident". It initially seemed like the most logical explanation for the change in appearance, but nothing about RTD's comments indicates that this was the intention. It remains uncertain whether Davros' injuries will even continue to be an acknowledged part of his story. RTD didn't say that as a result of his sudden epiphany about disability the show would only be exploring Davros' pre-accident or pre-Genesis life from now on. He said that "this is how we see Davros now, this is what he looks like, this is 2023" and "things are not in black-and-white anymore, and Davros used to look like that and he looks like this now". The clear implication is that this is a retcon no more deserving of an in-universe explanation than the fact that the show is no longer in black-and-white. Even if that weren't the case and every effort was made to conform to established continuity, this still wouldn't be acceptable to me. Why should anyone be okay with this smug, pompous, bloviating arsehole scrapping one of the most iconic designs in sci-fi history for reasons that have nothing whatsoever to do with storytelling and everything to do with shallow political posturing? Why should anyone who respects the talented artists who actually created Doctor Who not be offended by his implication that the design is a symbol of bigotry less than a year after the death of the man primarily responsible for it? |
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Post by burrunjor on Nov 30, 2023 12:07:27 GMT
I don't rate the drinker very highly these days, here he just rattles off a very weathered and watered down version of every generic cultural commentator has had to say about the Davros situation, and deliberately ignores that this was set in Davros' past pre-accident. If RTD hadn't made his stupid comments on Unleashed, Drinker would have looked ridiculous here. I blame RTD's inability to read the room for this kind of disingenuous yet fully intentional misdirection on Drinker's part. You don't actually have any basis to claim that this was set "pre-accident". It initially seemed like the most logical explanation for the change in appearance, but nothing about RTD's comments indicates that this was the intention. It remains uncertain whether Davros' injuries will even continue to be an acknowledged part of his story. RTD didn't say that as a result of his sudden epiphany about disability the show would only be exploring Davros' pre-accident or pre-Genesis life from now on. He said that "this is how we see Davros now, this is what he looks like, this is 2023" and "things are not in black-and-white anymore, and Davros used to look like that and he looks like this now". The clear implication is that this is a retcon no more deserving of an in-universe explanation than the fact that the show is no longer in black-and-white. Even if that weren't the case and every effort was made to conform to established continuity, this still wouldn't be acceptable to me. Why should anyone be okay with this smug, pompous, bloviating arsehole scrapping one of the most iconic designs in sci-fi history for reasons that have nothing whatsoever to do with storytelling and everything to do with shallow political posturing? Why should anyone who respects the talented artists who actually created Doctor Who not be offended by his implication that the design is a symbol of bigotry less than a year after the death of the man primarily responsible for it? I find your preoccupation with defending the vandalisation of something you claim to care about very odd.Now let's not get into an anti RTD era echo chamber. I know that sounds incredibly hypocritical of me considering my "no DW fan is a Missy fan" crap in the past. Still if my friendship with Claudia and indeed with Omie shows anything it's that fandom in wars are pointless and that we ALL can end up becoming caught up in our own tribes and echo chambers. Sorry if I sound like a condescending c*nt, I don't mean to be it's just that I have had experience there. I still say this is why my multiverse formula is the best. It separates new who and classic who, and allows them to exist in their own areas and stops so much fandom in wars where we have to fight to make one dominant, and indeed it even spares RTD from his own idiocy this way. |
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Post by zarius on Nov 30, 2023 12:38:35 GMT
I don't rate the drinker very highly these days, here he just rattles off a very weathered and watered down version of every generic cultural commentator has had to say about the Davros situation, and deliberately ignores that this was set in Davros' past pre-accident. If RTD hadn't made his stupid comments on Unleashed, Drinker would have looked ridiculous here. I blame RTD's inability to read the room for this kind of disingenuous yet fully intentional misdirection on Drinker's part. I find your preoccupation with defending the vandalisation of something you claim to care about very odd. I can't get on board with people like Drinker, Bowelstrek, Nerdrotic, Heelvsbabyface no matter what they say, they can't adjust to the 21st century at all. I have disabled friends, I have trans friends, we have a member here who is a trans ally and is delving into their lifestyle. I don't agree with what RTD is doing to Davros, but I'm not going to lose sleep over it either, if it means he can do new things, I'm for that. I'm open-minded. I can excuse the new look by thinking back to "The Witch's' Familiar", my consideration for continuity is very much a reason I DO care. Doctor Who sparingly explains certain things, so if they don't explain the Davros change, I'll settle for what's in my head. I'm a writer as well as a fan, a lot of us are writers and fans, and this commands us to be creative. I enjoy classic AND modern Who, I grew up on Russel's writing and to me he's in my top five writers of all time. Of course I'm going to stand up for him, specially when I understand his motivations. I don't agree with everything he does when fuelled by his agendas, but I know the places of frustration from which he's drawing from. I'm not 100% a cheerleader for NuWho as I appear to be right now...I hated the majority of Moffat's era, I think Smith was shit outside of series five, I think Capaldi did his best but had to elevate horse manure, Chibnall's era I liked better but Jodie was miscast and Yaz should never have been her last companion, as Graham and Dan outshone her....as for Star Beast, I didn't like the pronoun thing, it was forced, I didn't like "a woman would have understood", it was insulting, but there is a difference between disliking the Message and disliking how they convey it. I don't mind "the message", we could do with more of "the message" actually, but when it comes to entertainment, I want the message to be conveyed a lot more subtly so it stands a chance of being heard and accepted. You do you. |
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Post by Bernard Marx on Nov 30, 2023 16:00:23 GMT
The Doctor was always a conservative aristocratic Englishman in the original series, the ultimate encapsulation of a British gentleman. On the surface, he is. He's very much a gentleman in demeanour, courtesy of his aristocratic upbringing. However, in terms of his values and core belief system, he's not traditionally conservative. He willingly threw away his Gallifreyan aristocratic privileges courtesy of being bored of Time Lord establishment detritus. He's a gentleman, but also a maverick; a marriage integral to Verity Lambert's original vision. Without this latter element, the character would also stop being the Doctor. NuWho has similarly neglected this element by having the Doctor champion "the system" and join in with celebrating popcultural fads (Ed Sheeran, Bridget Jones...). The incarnation lambasted by those in charge of NuWho (primarily Cornell) for supposedly being a Tory- Jon Pertwee- constantly butted heads with bureaucratic figures. He traduces a politician for his English nationalism in Claws of Axos, advocates against apartheid in The Mutants, opposes humanity's (and the Silurians') blind lust for bloodshed in The Silurians where most contemporary right-wing political figures would cheer it on (as the Ministry does in the story)...Hartnell's Doctor displays a similar streak in Galaxy 4 and The Savages, as does Colin Baker's in Vengeance on Varos, itself characterised by a hellscape within which neoliberal vultures profit from suffering being contorted into public entertainment. NuWho's biggest failing is in discarding the Doctor's "gentlemanly" mannerisms and by stripping away his maverick stature. And- getting off the point- in assuming that the audience are idiots. |
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Post by burrunjor on Nov 30, 2023 16:58:45 GMT
The Doctor was always a conservative aristocratic Englishman in the original series, the ultimate encapsulation of a British gentleman. On the surface, he is. He's very much a gentleman in demeanour, courtesy of his aristocratic upbringing. However, in terms of his values and core belief system, he's not traditionally conservative. He willingly threw away his Gallifreyan aristocratic privileges courtesy of being bored of Time Lord establishment detritus. He's a gentleman, but also a maverick; a marriage integral to Verity Lambert's original vision. Without this latter element, the character would also stop being the Doctor. NuWho has similarly neglected this element by having the Doctor champion "the system" and join in with celebrating popcultural fads (Ed Sheeran, Bridget Jones...). The incarnation lambasted by those in charge of NuWho (primarily Cornell) for supposedly being a Tory- Jon Pertwee- constantly butted heads with bureaucratic figures. He traduces a politician for his English nationalism in Claws of Axos, advocates against apartheid in The Mutants, opposes humanity's (and the Silurians') blind lust for bloodshed in The Silurians where most contemporary right-wing political figures would cheer it on (as the Ministry does in the story)...Hartnell's Doctor displays a similar streak in Galaxy 4 and The Savages, as does Colin Baker's in Vengeance on Varos, itself characterised by a hellscape within which neoliberal vultures profit from suffering being contorted into public entertainment. NuWho's biggest failing is in discarding the Doctor's "gentlemanly" mannerisms and by stripping away his maverick stature. And- getting off the point- in assuming that the audience are idiots. Oh god idiots like Paul Cornell viewing Pertwee as the right wing Doctor because he was posh reminds me of idiots like Grant Morrison similarly viewing the original Dan Dare comics as right wing because the characters were very British, and spoke in an old fashioned Pip pip tally ho chaps type of a dialogue. The original Dan Dare comics featured a socialist utopia of the future where all the creeds and colours lived together (16 years before Star Trek.) And had villains who were the result of racial supremacy, genetic engineering and fascism 13 years before the Daleks, with the Mekon being a metaphor for both Nazism and the Apartheid regime. Sadly however people like Paul just read everything in a shallow, face value way, which is why they are also the type to say the Doctor can be absolutely anyone as in their shallow surface only analysis. the Doctors were all completely different characters because Pertwee was big and Hartnell small. They fail to ever see any nuances in any story, be it character development or metaphors. I remember Paul Cornell being called the thinking man of Who fandom. If that's true it is indeed a sorry fandom. |
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Post by burrunjor on Nov 30, 2023 17:23:38 GMT
I find your preoccupation with defending the vandalisation of something you claim to care about very odd. I can't get on board with people like Drinker, Bowelstrek, Nerdrotic, Heelvsbabyface no matter what they say, they can't adjust to the 21st century at all. I have disabled friends, I have trans friends, we have a member here who is a trans ally and is delving into their lifestyle. I don't agree with what RTD is doing to Davros, but I'm not going to lose sleep over it either, if it means he can do new things, I'm for that. I'm open-minded. I can excuse the new look by thinking back to "The Witch's' Familiar", my consideration for continuity is very much a reason I DO care. Doctor Who sparingly explains certain things, so if they don't explain the Davros change, I'll settle for what's in my head. I'm a writer as well as a fan, a lot of us are writers and fans, and this commands us to be creative. I enjoy classic AND modern Who, I grew up on Russel's writing and to me he's in my top five writers of all time. Of course I'm going to stand up for him, specially when I understand his motivations. I don't agree with everything he does when fuelled by his agendas, but I know the places of frustration from which he's drawing from. I'm not 100% a cheerleader for NuWho as I appear to be right now...I hated the majority of Moffat's era, I think Smith was shit outside of series five, I think Capaldi did his best but had to elevate horse manure, Chibnall's era I liked better but Jodie was miscast and Yaz should never have been her last companion, as Graham and Dan outshone her....as for Star Beast, I didn't like the pronoun thing, it was forced, I didn't like "a woman would have understood", it was insulting, but there is a difference between disliking the Message and disliking how they convey it. I don't mind "the message", we could do with more of "the message" actually, but when it comes to entertainment, I want the message to be conveyed a lot more subtly so it stands a chance of being heard and accepted. You do you. Is that me? Or is it Henshin or Maxil or someone who I don't know is an ally? Shows how far right this forum is doesn't it that we have so many options. If it was me just to be clear I am not either trans or becoming trans. I do feel uncomfortable being me, but that's because of my personality LOL. I'd be a tedious, boring wanker in any gender. I have just become really close with some trans people recently (even fell in love with one, but alas it was not to be, though they are still a friend.) Meanwhile I can't stand the fandom menace either apart from a few exceptions. The thing I don't like about them is that they are lazy thinkers. I get being frustrated with the SJW impact on fandom. No one has talked about it more than me, but the difference is I didn't let it turn me into a right winger. It's like I said in another thread there are basically three stages of political awareness. 1/ You want to fight injustices in the world, but you are so naive you will accept any supposed leftist as genuine, and will fall into the grip of SJWs, Rick from the Young Ones style poseurs, guardian, neo liberal lefties and "anarchists" etc. A lot of people never grow out of this stage, however there are a lot of people who spot the SJWs or phoney feminists for what they are, and so they move onto 2/ where you are more cynical of these supposed left wing crusaders and can see how a lot of them are just as divisive as those they fight. Here however you can go down two paths. Either you trade one tribe for another, and let the right wing, who might not seem as bad now do your thinking for you and become a part of their group completely, or you realize that the right wingers are another tribe, that tribalism and greed are the root of all evil and move onto 3/ here you have a more mature analysis, your opinions are your own and ironically you'll actually discover more genuine left wing politics. Rather than neo liberal divisive crap, you'll have a better grasp of economics, know not to swallow any propaganda, 0 prejudices of any kind, and will actually have a better understanding of socialism (which will lead you down that path.) I think I got stuck in phase 2 a bit in 2017-2018. I never became a full on conservative, but I think I turned a blind eye to some of the insane right wingers I used to watch like Tree of Logic, who is every bit as irrational and insane as the worst SJWs. She should change her name to Free of Logic. (She actually reminds me of that insane black woman from that awful Neil Breen movie who shouts YOU ARE NOT WELCOME ON THE STREETS and who just shouts throughout the movie LOL. Though that woman isn't as hysterical as Tree.) Still I'd like to think I'm at the beginning of phase 3. Of course not everyone goes through all phases. Leaving aside the people who get stuck, some skip a phase. I think Claudia for instance just went straight to phase 3. The fandom menace meanwhile I think just got stuck in phase 2, hence why I don't really have time for them anymore. (Of course that's a charitable description as the three stages only applies to honest people. There are others who don't have any principles, and will just manipulate the first two phases for their careers. ) Of course I'm not saying those who get stuck in phase 2 are all idiots, or that I disown them. Not everyone has time for politics, because they have too much shit going on in their lives. However for people who have made it their entire careers which the fandom menace crowd have, it's not excusable. Same with Tulsi. I sadly know people in real life who think Israel are just defending themselves because all they have seen is mainstream propaganda, and whilst I can excuse them, it's f*cking Tulsi's job. |
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Post by zarius on Nov 30, 2023 18:07:33 GMT
I can't get on board with people like Drinker, Bowelstrek, Nerdrotic, Heelvsbabyface no matter what they say, they can't adjust to the 21st century at all. I have disabled friends, I have trans friends, we have a member here who is a trans ally and is delving into their lifestyle. I don't agree with what RTD is doing to Davros, but I'm not going to lose sleep over it either, if it means he can do new things, I'm for that. I'm open-minded. I can excuse the new look by thinking back to "The Witch's' Familiar", my consideration for continuity is very much a reason I DO care. Doctor Who sparingly explains certain things, so if they don't explain the Davros change, I'll settle for what's in my head. I'm a writer as well as a fan, a lot of us are writers and fans, and this commands us to be creative. I enjoy classic AND modern Who, I grew up on Russel's writing and to me he's in my top five writers of all time. Of course I'm going to stand up for him, specially when I understand his motivations. I don't agree with everything he does when fuelled by his agendas, but I know the places of frustration from which he's drawing from. I'm not 100% a cheerleader for NuWho as I appear to be right now...I hated the majority of Moffat's era, I think Smith was shit outside of series five, I think Capaldi did his best but had to elevate horse manure, Chibnall's era I liked better but Jodie was miscast and Yaz should never have been her last companion, as Graham and Dan outshone her....as for Star Beast, I didn't like the pronoun thing, it was forced, I didn't like "a woman would have understood", it was insulting, but there is a difference between disliking the Message and disliking how they convey it. I don't mind "the message", we could do with more of "the message" actually, but when it comes to entertainment, I want the message to be conveyed a lot more subtly so it stands a chance of being heard and accepted. You do you. Is that me? Or is it Henshin or Maxil or someone who I don't know is an ally? I'll leave it to them to come out, it was probably wrong of me to 'out' them in my post, but I wanted to bring the matter closer to home. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2023 19:42:36 GMT
It isn't me. I'm a supporter of Trans rights, but I've never actually met a trans person before (not that I'm aware of, anyway).
I'm also not sure if being a watcher of Big Booty TGirls is really delving into their lifestyle, so I think he's talking about someone else.
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Post by burrunjor on Nov 30, 2023 19:52:55 GMT
Sorry I'll respect the person's privacy, didn't mean to pry.
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