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Post by rushy on Oct 19, 2023 20:57:08 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2023 10:01:48 GMT
Bit rich coming from the guy who actively repudiated and ridiculed the classic series for its low budget. Granted that was many years ago and people obviously change and grow but I still think it's rather funny.
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Post by iank on Oct 20, 2023 20:56:17 GMT
He's right, though. It doesn't.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2023 11:13:01 GMT
Looking at Tom's list, aren't you just so glad JNT came along to "save the show" from Williams by... er... halving his audience figures? lol I've never understood why Williams fans slag off JNT and vice versa. As a hardcore fan of 80s Who I've never claimed JNT saved the show, merely that he updated it for a new decade. It was a slow start, however and I agree 17 is better than 18 by some way. The Williams era is also far more consistent, but the JNT era in my opinion had better "classic" stories like Remembrance, Fenric, Earthshock and Caves of Androzani. That said, there are less clunkers in the Williams era and doesn't have a bad season like Trial. I've noticed Williams era fans and JNT era fans can't seem to get along which I think is a real shame. We should all be friends and piss off Hinchcliffe elitists instead  |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2023 11:38:55 GMT
Looking at Tom's list, aren't you just so glad JNT came along to "save the show" from Williams by... er... halving his audience figures? lol I've never understood why Williams fans slag off JNT and vice versa. As a hardcore fan of 80s Who I've never claimed JNT saved the show, merely that he updated it for a new decade. It was a slow start, however and I agree 17 is better than 18 by some way. The Williams era is also far more consistent, but the JNT era in my opinion had better "classic" stories like Remembrance, Fenric, Earthshock and Caves of Androzani. That said, there are less clunkers in the Williams era and doesn't have a bad season like Trial. I've noticed Williams era fans and JNT era fans can't seem to get along which I think is a real shame. We should all be friends and piss off Hinchcliffe elitists instead I'd argue JNT's so-called "update" only really started to pay off by '88, by which time it was already too late. There are some exceptions, but the general rule is that 80s DW sucks. Williams was more consistent but had less standouts, but I'm not even a big fan of his era at all so I won't defend him either lol. Hinchcliffe was great, but overrated. For me, the true peak of the show was in the Troughton-Pertwee years. It got a bit too "clever" in the Baker years, bordering on arrogant I find. I'll even maintain that with the exceptions of Genesis and Remembrance, the 60s was the only time both the Daleks and Cybermen were used properly. The 80s Cybermen are a total joke, completely embarrassing, and the Daleks are barely present. I think JNT Who works much better with weird little character stories like Caves and Fenric, Doctor Who simply didn't have the effects budget to do space epics with any ounce of seriousness, especially after Star Wars came along. This is also true of NuWho as well; stories like Blink and Heaven Sent excel with their intimate storytelling while massive bombastic spectacles like Last of the Time Lords and Time of the Doctor are complete misses. |
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Post by burrunjor on Oct 30, 2023 12:12:20 GMT
I've never understood why Williams fans slag off JNT and vice versa. As a hardcore fan of 80s Who I've never claimed JNT saved the show, merely that he updated it for a new decade. It was a slow start, however and I agree 17 is better than 18 by some way. The Williams era is also far more consistent, but the JNT era in my opinion had better "classic" stories like Remembrance, Fenric, Earthshock and Caves of Androzani. That said, there are less clunkers in the Williams era and doesn't have a bad season like Trial. I've noticed Williams era fans and JNT era fans can't seem to get along which I think is a real shame. We should all be friends and piss off Hinchcliffe elitists instead I'd argue JNT's so-called "update" only really started to pay off by '88, by which time it was already too late. There are some exceptions, but the general rule is that 80s DW sucks. Williams was more consistent but had less standouts, but I'm not even a big fan of his era at all so I won't defend him either lol. Hinchcliffe was great, but overrated. For me, the true peak of the show was in the Troughton-Pertwee years. It got a bit too "clever" in the Baker years, bordering on arrogant I find. I'll even maintain that with the exceptions of Genesis and Remembrance, the 60s was the only time both the Daleks and Cybermen were used properly. The 80s Cybermen are a total joke, completely embarrassing, and the Daleks are barely present. I think JNT Who works much better with weird little character stories like Caves and Fenric, Doctor Who simply didn't have the effects budget to do space epics with any ounce of seriousness, especially after Star Wars came along. This is also true of NuWho as well; stories like Blink and Heaven Sent excel with their intimate storytelling while massive bombastic spectacles like Last of the Time Lords and Time of the Doctor are complete misses. I disagree to some extent about the Daleks and the Cybermen. The Pertwee era is great for Dalek stories. Day is one of their best. Also I think the Pertwee era really shows them off as an intergalactic threat better than any other. We see them conquer other races like Ogrons, Spirodons, Exillons, and we see other races like the Draconians and Thals in combat with them. Also their plans are not just focused on earth, but the galaxy and I like the way that the Doctor doesn't free Spirodon in Planet or destroy the Daleks completely in the Pertwee stories the way he did in some 80s, 60s and 00s stories . It shows you how the Daleks are this huge force that you can never completely destroy. You can free maybe a couple of worlds from them, but there will always be planets like Spirodon, under their rule. Earth is lucky because the Doctor happens to have been fond of it, explored its history and knows when to protect it, but others will just be conquered, their culture's and histories destroyed, and forgotten about like Spirodon. The Daleks are almost a force of nature there. The 60s meanwhile didn't really ever show that side. First story they are desperate, second it's about earth, third they just after the Doctor, Daleks Masterplan meanwhile comes close to showing them as an intergalactic threat, but even then we don't actually see them conquer other worlds. Power and Evil meanwhile just have them fight humans again. Also the 70s really shows how much the Doctor hates them. Pertwee, who was probably working in his real life hatred of the Daleks LOL, is jovial when they get destroyed and even takes a pleasure in killing them himself, which for his Doctor of all incarnations is pretty incredible. Also whilst the Daleks may have been terribly underused in the 80s, all three stories are still classics, are suitably darker and push the heroes to their limits more than others, (with Tegan having a breakdown at what the Daleks do and Colin only being saved by the skin of his teeth and Revelation) whilst Remembrance in particular shows them ready to take on the Time Lords and similarly force the Doctor to take more drastic actions to stop them. There's also an interesting character arc that runs through the 3 80s stories which really defines each Doctor. Davison wants to kill Davros, but finds he can't shoot him when he is unarmed and helpless, and instantly regrets it. Colin is overconfident to make up for Davison, but he is too arrogant and falls into Davros' trap, whilst McCoy is ready from both a moral and a practical point of view and seemingly finishes him. However like Tom he still has doubts and both the cafe scene and the have I the right scene are good companions to each other. Both show him struggling with the decision, not just morally, but practically is removing such a huge power from the universe good? Will it lead to greater problems, and the end of both stories similarly have the Doctor and his companion and the viewer wondering if they've done the right thing. To me Genesis = Remembrance is probably the best arc in the shows history. Meanwhile the Cybermen I think are effective in both Earthshock and Attack. The former has them kill Adric a companion for the first time in the shows history giving the Doctor a reason to fear and hate them, and it also has them basically outwit the Doctor with it only being pure luck that saves him and his companions. They are also shown to be immune to the humans weapons, have bombs that can destroy planets, and it takes an entire alliance of planets to bring them down, whilst Grimwade's stunning direction and the excellent march of the Cybermen theme highlighting their menace and power. In no way are they a joke in that story. Attack meanwhile, whilst making them more vulnerable that can be excused by them being at the end of their tether after the alliance from Earthshock. Even then however we seem them wipe out another intelligent species (the Cryons) become such a threat that the Time Lords step in, and the horror of Cyber conversion is brought back, plus the scene where they crush Lytton's hands and even just where they capture him are all chilling. Silver Nemesis and Five Doctors however I'll give you, they are utter jokes in both and sadly I think that has overshadowed the other two stories to the point where the writers of New Who treated them as joke villains, and similarly had them get slaughtered on mass (Doomsday) or be the Masters bitch boys (Death in Heaven, Timeless Children, Power of the Doctor.) It's a shame that they got treated that way, but Five Doctors was just Terrance Dicks being a petty asshole to their creator and Eric Saward. Silver Nemesis meanwhile was a writer who didn't really know or care for them, so it shows you that it's not the idea of the monsters that's bad, you just need a writer who understands and respects them. Meanwhile as for JNT's era I'd say that he hits greater heights than Williams, but much lower lows. I also agree that he didn't understand the limits of the shows budget. In fact that's my biggest beef with him. In the Davison era the show gained a reputation for cheapo effects that ti didn't have before. Obviously there were atrocious effects before, but those were either not that much worse than other series of the time, or they were actually quite rare. Every now and again the producers might get conned like Invasion of the Dinosaurs, or might do something like the Web Planet, that seemed like a good idea on paper, but then in reality they realised only too late they couldn't afford it. JNT however in Davison's time did every other weak, in a misguided attempt to keep up with Star Wars and drags so many great stories down that way like Kinda. Still overall I'd say the average for JNT years is. Brilliant seasons seasons 25 seasons 26 Both among the best the show ever did, in terms of Doctor/Companion duo, creativity, originality etc. Average seasons Season 22 Season 19 Season 21 Season 18 All mostly solid seasons, with some classics like Earthshock, Castrovalva, Resurrection, Caves, The Awakening, The Visitation, Revelation, Varos, but all seasons are also marred by some stinkers that aren't just bad but among the worst the show ever did, like Time Flight, Timelash, Warriors of the Deep, Meglos, The Leisure Hive, Twin Dilemma that I think for some overshadow the good of these seasons. Dreadful seasons Season 23 Season 24 Sorry Maxil but other than a few moments to be honest like the Valeyard being revealed and the guys face melting off, these are absolute turds and the worst the show ever did. Overall JNT is a mixed bag for me, but I still rate him above Williams only because he was there longer and therefore I feel is more important to the show overall. (Also to be fair to him his two worst seasons were the ones with the behind the scenes drama and interference.) Also finally Maxil, to be fair to Iank, the feud between Williams and JNT fans comes from the JNT fans who saw his era as DW being a respectable, serious sci fi show rather than the silliness of Tom's time. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2023 12:34:26 GMT
I'd argue JNT's so-called "update" only really started to pay off by '88, by which time it was already too late. There are some exceptions, but the general rule is that 80s DW sucks. Williams was more consistent but had less standouts, but I'm not even a big fan of his era at all so I won't defend him either lol. Hinchcliffe was great, but overrated. For me, the true peak of the show was in the Troughton-Pertwee years. It got a bit too "clever" in the Baker years, bordering on arrogant I find. I'll even maintain that with the exceptions of Genesis and Remembrance, the 60s was the only time both the Daleks and Cybermen were used properly. The 80s Cybermen are a total joke, completely embarrassing, and the Daleks are barely present. I think JNT Who works much better with weird little character stories like Caves and Fenric, Doctor Who simply didn't have the effects budget to do space epics with any ounce of seriousness, especially after Star Wars came along. This is also true of NuWho as well; stories like Blink and Heaven Sent excel with their intimate storytelling while massive bombastic spectacles like Last of the Time Lords and Time of the Doctor are complete misses. I disagree to some extent about the Daleks and the Cybermen. The Pertwee era is great for Dalek stories. Day is one of their best. Also I think the Pertwee era really shows them off as an intergalactic threat better than any other. We see them conquer other races like Ogrons, Spirodons, Exillons, and we see other races like the Draconians and Thals in combat with them. Also their plans are not just focused on earth, but the galaxy and I like the way that the Doctor doesn't free Spirodon in Planet or destroy the Daleks completely in the Pertwee stories the way he did in some 80s, 60s and 00s stories . It shows you how the Daleks are this huge force that you can never completely destroy. You can free maybe a couple of worlds from them, but there will always be planets like Spirodon, under their rule. Earth is lucky because the Doctor happens to have been fond of it, explored its history and knows when to protect it, but others will just be conquered, their culture's and histories destroyed, and forgotten about like Spirodon. The Daleks are almost a force of nature there. The 60s meanwhile didn't really ever show that side. First story they are desperate, second it's about earth, third they just after the Doctor, Daleks Masterplan meanwhile comes close to showing them as an intergalactic threat, but even then we don't actually see them conquer other worlds. Power and Evil meanwhile just have them fight humans again. Also the 70s really shows how much the Doctor hates them. Pertwee, who was probably working in his real life hatred of the Daleks LOL, is jovial when they get destroyed and even takes a pleasure in killing them himself, which for his Doctor of all incarnations is pretty incredible. Also whilst the Daleks may have been terribly underused in the 80s, all three stories are still classics, are suitably darker and push the heroes to their limits more than others, (with Tegan having a breakdown at what the Daleks do and Colin only being saved by the skin of his teeth and Revelation) whilst Remembrance in particular shows them ready to take on the Time Lords and similarly force the Doctor to take more drastic actions to stop them. There's also an interesting character arc that runs through the 3 80s stories which really defines each Doctor. Davison wants to kill Davros, but finds he can't shoot him when he is unarmed and helpless, and instantly regrets it. Colin is overconfident to make up for Davison, but he is too arrogant and falls into Davros' trap, whilst McCoy is ready from both a moral and a practical point of view and seemingly finishes him. However like Tom he still has doubts and both the cafe scene and the have I the right scene are good companions to each other. Both show him struggling with the decision, not just morally, but practically is removing such a huge power from the universe good? Will it lead to greater problems, and the end of both stories similarly have the Doctor and his companion and the viewer wondering if they've done the right thing. To me Genesis = Remembrance is probably the best arc in the shows history. Meanwhile the Cybermen I think are effective in both Earthshock and Attack. The former has them kill Adric a companion for the first time in the shows history giving the Doctor a reason to fear and hate them, and it also has them basically outwit the Doctor with it only being pure luck that saves him and his companions. They are also shown to be immune to the humans weapons, have bombs that can destroy planets, and it takes an entire alliance of planets to bring them down, whilst Grimwade's stunning direction and the excellent march of the Cybermen theme highlighting their menace and power. In no way are they a joke in that story. Attack meanwhile, whilst making them more vulnerable that can be excused by them being at the end of their tether after the alliance from Earthshock. Even then however we seem them wipe out another intelligent species (the Cryons) become such a threat that the Time Lords step in, and the horror of Cyber conversion is brought back, plus the scene where they crush Lytton's hands and even just where they capture him are all chilling. Silver Nemesis and Five Doctors however I'll give you, they are utter jokes in both and sadly I think that has overshadowed the other two stories to the point where the writers of New Who treated them as joke villains, and similarly had them get slaughtered on mass (Doomsday) or be the Masters bitch boys (Death in Heaven, Timeless Children, Power of the Doctor.) It's a shame that they got treated that way, but Five Doctors was just Terrance Dicks being a petty asshole to their creator and Eric Saward. Silver Nemesis meanwhile was a writer who didn't really know or care for them, so it shows you that it's not the idea of the monsters that's bad, you just need a writer who understands and respects them. Meanwhile as for JNT's era I'd say that he hits greater heights than Williams, but much lower lows. I also agree that he didn't understand the limits of the shows budget. In fact that's my biggest beef with him. In the Davison era the show gained a reputation for cheapo effects that ti didn't have before. Obviously there were atrocious effects before, but those were either not that much worse than other series of the time, or they were actually quite rare. Every now and again the producers might get conned like Invasion of the Dinosaurs, or might do something like the Web Planet, that seemed like a good idea on paper, but then in reality they realised only too late they couldn't afford it. JNT however in Davison's time did every other weak, in a misguided attempt to keep up with Star Wars and drags so many great stories down that way like Kinda. Still overall I'd say the average for JNT years is. Brilliant seasons seasons 25 seasons 26 Both among the best the show ever did, in terms of Doctor/Companion duo, creativity, originality etc. Average seasons Season 22 Season 19 Season 21 Season 18 All mostly solid seasons, with some classics like Earthshock, Castrovalva, Resurrection, Caves, The Awakening, The Visitation, Revelation, Varos, but all seasons are also marred by some stinkers that aren't just bad but among the worst the show ever did, like Time Flight, Timelash, Warriors of the Deep, Meglos, The Leisure Hive, Twin Dilemma that I think for some overshadow the good of these seasons. Dreadful seasons Season 23 Season 24 Sorry Maxil but other than a few moments to be honest like the Valeyard being revealed and the guys face melting off, these are absolute turds and the worst the show ever did. Overall JNT is a mixed bag for me, but I still rate him above Williams only because he was there longer and therefore I feel is more important to the show overall. (Also to be fair to him his two worst seasons were the ones with the behind the scenes drama and interference.) Also finally Maxil, to be fair to Iank, the feud between Williams and JNT fans comes from the JNT fans who saw his era as DW being a respectable, serious sci fi show rather than the silliness of Tom's time. This is true of every era, though. Since the Hinchcliffe era there's always been a group of fans who vehemently dislike the era that immediately comes after it or before it. NuWho fans seem to repeat the same blind rhetoric that RTD "saved" (see, history repeats itself) Doctor Who because it was so, so shit in the 80s and in the McCoy era in particular despite the fact that RTD took loads of stuff from that era and does the exact same thing that JNT used to do in hiring light entertainers in his stories. Hinchcliffe fans are worse at criticising the Williams years than JNT fans are to be honest. In fact, certain Hinchcliffe fans dismiss everything after a certain point and hate Williams the most for being "CBBC Who". That said, I've seen Williams fans, unprovoked, going after JNT saying that everything was great and rosy before he got his hands on it and turned it into a tasteless series despite the fact that the last Williams season (which I liked) had a man split his trousers and Tom essentially suck a giant green penis. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2023 12:39:07 GMT
Both eras are worthy of criticism. Yes, the JNT era did look very cheap at the times but it also looked clunky in the Williams era too. I love Nimon, but actors lumbering about going "rooooaaarrr, roooaarr" while wearing a mask that looks about ready to fall off is hardly much better than Traken, is it? But then I could also say that City of Death is more polished than anything in the Davison era. It works both ways.
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Post by burrunjor on Oct 30, 2023 12:55:13 GMT
This is true of every era, though. Since the Hinchcliffe era there's always been a group of fans who vehemently dislike the era that immediately comes after it or before it. NuWho fans seem to repeat the same blind rhetoric that RTD "saved" (see, history repeats itself) Doctor Who because it was so, so shit in the 80s and in the McCoy era in particular despite the fact that RTD took loads of stuff from that era and does the exact same thing that JNT used to do in hiring light entertainers in his stories. Hinchcliffe fans are worse at criticising the Williams years than JNT fans are to be honest. In fact, certain Hinchcliffe fans dismiss everything after a certain point and hate Williams the most for being "CBBC Who". That said, I've seen Williams fans, unprovoked, going after JNT saying that everything was great and rosy before he got his hands on it and turned it into a tasteless series despite the fact that the last Williams season (which I liked) had a man split his trousers and Tom essentially suck a giant green penis. Good points, but I think back in the 80s JNT fans were the hardest on Williams as it definitely seemed to be a stories like Earthshock brought the edge back to DW. You can see even on the Earthshock DVD made twenty years on, fans like Mark Gattiss and Steven Moffat are going on about how DW had become so predictable at that point and JNT made it a cool show again. Even Peter Davsion kind of hints at that, saying that it lost a lot of its edge in later stories when Tom would go around offering a bad guy a jelly baby. I do think though that Hinchcliff was a terrible ambassador for the series, and encouraged people to slag off the later eras saying that after he left it all became rubbish. As far as ambassadors for the show rather than being a producer go then I'd rank them. Barry Letts JNT Andrew Cartmell Those three were all reasonably good public figures who respected the show overall and didn't shit on other people's eras. That doesn't mean they didn't disagree with things in other eras but it was always in a respectful way. (Granted JNT became the worst ambassador after all the doable barker stuff came out LOL, but if we're looking at how he promoted it at the time and in the 90s, then yes he was.) The middle men would be Graham Williams, Anthony Bidmead and Bob Holmes who were always private and never did many interviews, which as we'll see was a damn site better than the ones to follow LOL. Verity Lambert Philip Hinchcliff Eric Saward. All three were such miserable buggers about eras that came after theirs (In Sawards case he was a miserable bastard about his own era LOL.) All of which helped to further damage the show's rep and push the idea of continuity didn't matter. Meanwhile the fact that they all kissed the arse of New Who which as you say did things that they raked JNT over hot coals for just made it even worse and made it look like they were being bandwagon jumpers. Finally we have Terrance Dicks who hilariously enough I don't think meant to be a bad ambassador for the series, but he just had no tact LOL. He'd express sexist, racist views in docus and commentaries and worse he'd act like those were the views of the show and always had been, again denting its reputation. He was also a petty dick to JNT, but I've heard from some people that might have been because JNT was a dick to him and stopped him from doing the DW books at some point so I can understand him not having a balanced view of that era. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2023 12:58:34 GMT
This is true of every era, though. Since the Hinchcliffe era there's always been a group of fans who vehemently dislike the era that immediately comes after it or before it. NuWho fans seem to repeat the same blind rhetoric that RTD "saved" (see, history repeats itself) Doctor Who because it was so, so shit in the 80s and in the McCoy era in particular despite the fact that RTD took loads of stuff from that era and does the exact same thing that JNT used to do in hiring light entertainers in his stories. Hinchcliffe fans are worse at criticising the Williams years than JNT fans are to be honest. In fact, certain Hinchcliffe fans dismiss everything after a certain point and hate Williams the most for being "CBBC Who". That said, I've seen Williams fans, unprovoked, going after JNT saying that everything was great and rosy before he got his hands on it and turned it into a tasteless series despite the fact that the last Williams season (which I liked) had a man split his trousers and Tom essentially suck a giant green penis. Good points, but I think back in the 80s JNT fans were the hardest on Williams as it definitely seemed to be a stories like Earthshock brought the edge back to DW. You can see even on the Earthshock DVD made twenty years on, fans like Mark Gattiss and Steven Moffat are going on about how DW had become so predictable at that point and JNT made it a cool show again. Even Peter Davsion kind of hints at that, saying that it lost a lot of its edge in later stories when Tom would go around offering a bad guy a jelly baby. I do think though that Hinchcliff was a terrible ambassador for the series, and encouraged people to slag off the later eras saying that after he left it all became rubbish. As far as ambassadors for the show rather than being a producer go then I'd rank them. Barry Letts JNT Andrew Cartmell Those three were all reasonably good public figures who respected the show overall and didn't shit on other people's eras. That doesn't mean they didn't disagree with things in other eras but it was always in a respectful way. (Granted JNT became the worst ambassador after all the doable barker stuff came out LOL, but if we're looking at how he promoted it at the time and in the 90s, then yes he was.) The middle men would be Graham Williams, Anthony Bidmead and Bob Holmes who were always private and never did many interviews, which as we'll see was a damn site better than the ones to follow LOL. Verity Lambert Philip Hinchcliff Eric Saward. All three were such miserable buggers about eras that came after theirs (In Sawards case he was a miserable bastard about his own era LOL.) All of which helped to further damage the show's rep and push the idea of continuity didn't matter. Meanwhile the fact that they all kissed the arse of New Who which as you say did things that they raked JNT over hot coals for just made it even worse and made it look like they were being bandwagon jumpers. Finally we have Terrance Dicks who hilariously enough I don't think meant to be a bad ambassador for the series, but he just had no tact LOL. He'd express sexist, racist views in docus and commentaries and worse he'd act like those were the views of the show and always had been, again denting its reputation. He was also a petty dick to JNT, but I've heard from some people that might have been because JNT was a dick to him and stopped him from doing the DW books at some point so I can understand him not having a balanced view of that era. " stopped him from doing the DW books" That's fair though because it meant that the writers of the actual stories got the chance to novelize their own stuff. I think all but one of the McCoy stories (Ghost Light) is novelized by the actual writers of the scripts. |
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Post by iank on Oct 30, 2023 20:36:05 GMT
Looking at Tom's list, aren't you just so glad JNT came along to "save the show" from Williams by... er... halving his audience figures? lol I've never understood why Williams fans slag off JNT and vice versa. As a hardcore fan of 80s Who I've never claimed JNT saved the show, merely that he updated it for a new decade. It was a slow start, however and I agree 17 is better than 18 by some way. The Williams era is also far more consistent, but the JNT era in my opinion had better "classic" stories like Remembrance, Fenric, Earthshock and Caves of Androzani. That said, there are less clunkers in the Williams era and doesn't have a bad season like Trial. I've noticed Williams era fans and JNT era fans can't seem to get along which I think is a real shame. We should all be friends and piss off Hinchcliffe elitists instead Well YOU may not that do that, Maxil. But many "fans" did and do, persisting in this absurd myth that JNT came along to "save the show" by halving its viewing figures and stopping all that silly fun lol It just grinds my gears that's all. Truth is the only time JNT came close to Williams' ratings was season 19, which had the novelty of a new Doctor and twice weekly format, a novelty that had worn off by the next season. I'm not a JNT basher by any means, and I love season 22 and the McCoy era, but the fanboys get on my tits, it doesn't make JNT look good that he indulged in the same kind of nonsense talk as these clowns when he first joined in order to pander to them, and there's a certain irony that the older I get the more flat a lot of the early 80s looks and feels to me. A lot of the Davison era just sends me to sleep these days. And no, while the Hinchcliffeites do irk me for similarly tiresome reasons, that era is still largely great and much better than a lot of the early 80s.  |
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Post by rushy on Oct 30, 2023 20:45:47 GMT
People seem to have a low opinion of the Williams era because it became more about Tom being goofy than anything else. The prevailing image is that of the Horns of Nimon, with him amidst the cartoon TARDIS sound effects. It lacked a certain kind of "prestige" which JNT desperately sought to restore.
And then ironically RTD would try to restore the prestige lacking in the JNT era.
And then ironically Moffat would try to restore the prestige lacking in the RTD era.
And then ironically...
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Post by burrunjor on Oct 30, 2023 21:12:22 GMT
People seem to have a low opinion of the Williams era because it became more about Tom being goofy than anything else. The prevailing image is that of the Horns of Nimon, with him amidst the cartoon TARDIS sound effects. It lacked a certain kind of "prestige" which JNT desperately sought to restore. And then ironically RTD would try to restore the prestige lacking in the JNT era. And then ironically Moffat would try to restore the prestige lacking in the RTD era. And then ironically... There never was a golden age Rushy. That's all just a lie. |
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Post by rushy on Oct 30, 2023 21:27:35 GMT
People seem to have a low opinion of the Williams era because it became more about Tom being goofy than anything else. The prevailing image is that of the Horns of Nimon, with him amidst the cartoon TARDIS sound effects. It lacked a certain kind of "prestige" which JNT desperately sought to restore. And then ironically RTD would try to restore the prestige lacking in the JNT era. And then ironically Moffat would try to restore the prestige lacking in the RTD era. And then ironically... There never was a golden age Rushy. That's all just a lie. |
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Post by burrunjor on Dec 12, 2023 13:03:45 GMT
Well consolidated figures are in. It's not looking too good. Quite a drop for the second story. Now in this thread we count them as to remember in all fairness there was fewer channels in classic who's time. (Though personally I think including them for an entire month is ridiculous but still.) Here are the consolidated figures for the first two specials.  Not that great. 6.90 for the second. Both even with fiddled viewers are officially the lowest viewers for an anniversary story, not counting Silver Nemesis, to be fair though Silver Nemesis wasn't really as big a deal as the others as it wasn't old Doctors returning or marketed or anything like that. Even then for overnights Silver Nemesis kicked its arse every single episode. Silver Nemesis viewers 6.1 5.2 5.2 NONE of these three specials topped or matched those viewers. (might add as well that Silver Nemesis was broadcast in the middle of a season, when viewers are always low for DW. Even with that, and this having all the publicity in the world and the return of supposedly the most popular Doctor all time David Tennant. The first episode of Silver Nemesis still had 1 million more than Tennant's glorious return in terms of overnights.) Three Doctors. 1 9.6 2 10.8 3 8.8 4 11.9 Five Doctors 7.7 Day of the Doctor meanwhile had overnights of 10.18 and consolidated of 13 million making it the champion of all anniversary specials, depending on how you count it, or the second highest rated anniversary special. Makes sense to be fair as the 70s and the late 00s early 10s were the healthiest periods of DW in terms of mainstream success, as well as the 60s of course where there were no anniversary specials. In terms of multi Doctor stories (which I don't know can we count the last of the 60th at least as Ncuti was there?), the consolidated for the two 60th DID beat out the Two Doctors, but even then for overnights, Two Doctors still kicked its arse every step of the way and even with consolidated, the second special only matched the finale of the Two Doctors. 6.6 6.0 6.9 Again if the best they can manage even with Tennant and consolidated figures and all the hype in the world and it being the SIXTIETH anniversary is the same viewers as a story in the middle of Colin Bakers first season, that really doesn't bode well for the upcoming era. It's toast boys. |
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