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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2023 19:14:20 GMT
It's pretty obvious that NPH's Toymaker will just be a slight variant of the Master archetype laid down by RTD in 2007. Gone is the tall, lean, austere, oriental figure of the late 60s. Really there was something so haunting about that original portrayal, despite Gough's not being Chinese (same with Li H'sen Chang, we can go over the "racial connotations" of this all day). But that character definitely was Chinese, or at least supposed to be. Heck, he even has "celestial" in his name. Now, there's such a thing as taking liberties but what this is is simply a complete overwrite of the character. Why has he got to be zany, #QuIrKy, and, let's face it, gay? Won't comment on NPH himself (though I know burrunjor has a few problems with him), but this is really the most egregious example of name-dropping this show has ever committed.
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Post by rushy on Oct 2, 2023 19:43:24 GMT
There's nothing about him that's Chinese other than clothes. It was just meant to make him more exotic and strange to 60s audiences.
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Post by iank on Oct 2, 2023 20:49:39 GMT
"Celestial" refers to space/the universe in British terms. Er, I don't see anything to indicate the Toymaker is gay lol I don't know where you get that from out of the trailer. I think you mean "camp", but that's your average Who villain. Look I know we all (well, save rushy who's getting engaged to Davies next week  ) love to bash New Poo (and rightly so) but let's at least save it for when it's actually earned it. |
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Post by Monster X on Oct 2, 2023 22:06:25 GMT
"Celestial" refers to space/the universe in British terms. Er, I don't see anything to indicate the Toymaker is gay lol I don't know where you get that from out of the trailer. I think you mean "camp", but that's your average Who villain. Look I know we all (well, save rushy who's getting engaged to Davies next week ) love to bash New Poo (and rightly so) but let's at least save it for when it's actually earned it. means outer space, or a way to describe Heaven, but there's also a history of the word referring to the Chinese Empire or sometimes the Chinese people. Doesn't Jago called Li'H'sen "the celestial Chang" in The Talons Of Weng Chiang ? (sorry to be pedantic, iank...) Anyway, I'm not that bothered what Davies does with the Toymaker - it'll be the same pantomime villainy we've seen in NuWho a thousand times before, and although I like Michael Gough, I'm not keen on the character of the Toymaker or the original 1966 serial he appeared in. |
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Post by iank on Oct 2, 2023 22:14:37 GMT
Based on an admittedly crude fan animation I saw a few years back, it looks godawful honestly.
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Post by rushy on Oct 2, 2023 22:26:30 GMT
(well, save rushy who's getting engaged to Davies next week ) LOL I'm not blind to various issues with the RTD era - not least of which is the whole Eccleston drama. That's second only to how Colin was treated. But I appreciate that he knows exactly what he wants his version of the show to be, and has a keen focus on continuity and character growth. The only time I got an impression that Moffat knew what he was doing was in series 5, and maybe parts of series 6. After that, the show was a total crap shoot. And none of it amounted to anything in the long run. Chibnall's not even worth discussing. Maybe I'd like RTD less if a more mature and sensible showrunner took over. But it was his tenure that got me into the show, and I especially like how he tackles the Doctor's ego in the 2009-10 specials. That version of the Doctor - compensating for his losses and grief by doubling down on self-pride - is one of my favourites. I wish Tennant travelled on his own for an entire season like that. |
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Post by rushy on Oct 2, 2023 22:28:54 GMT
Based on an admittedly crude fan animation I saw a few years back, it looks godawful honestly. I listened to the recons about a decade ago. From what I've got written down (made notes of my thoughts back then), Hartnell was barely in it and Gough had no personality. The best part was Cyril, the mischievous schoolboy. He should have been the Toymaker instead. The games were fun, but the dialogue was poor. So it's probably a 3 or 4 out of 10 from me. I can see why RTD picked the Toymaker for a comeback, though. It's a good oppurtunity to improve on what was actually a decent idea. |
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Post by burrunjor on Oct 2, 2023 22:37:15 GMT
Glad somebody read my rants on NPH LOL. I figured it was coma time before anyone reached them.
I completely agree with you that honestly this version just looks like the bog standard quirky, I'm CRAAAAAAZZZZZZZZZYYYYYYYYY Simm/Missy stuff. Meanwhile Iank I don't think it's unreasonable for Yak to assume that this version of the Celestial Toymaker is gay.
I mean yeah back in the day no one would have thought gay actor= gay character, BUT RTD is so f*cking obsessed with that and sex in general to be fair. Look at what he did to the Master? Plus he is already going to have a drag act as a major villain, Ian Levine thinks possibly the Rani next year. Also sorry but the NPH Toymaker isn't just DW villain camp. That's like Roger Delgado, Anthony Ainley, Davros, IE grandiose speech, going MUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. This Toymaker is wearing make up, dancing with the Doctor, flirting with him etc. Some fans are even shipping them already.
Still you're right that obviously we should reserve our judgement for when we see it, though again NPH can f*ck off in my opinion regardless.
I personally don't get all the hype about the Celestial Toymaker myself. I think he is a bit overrated. Never been keen on that story to be honest. There are other one off villains that would make better recurring foes if we have to plow one offs despite the show being all about change. Fenric for instance would make a great recurring foe.
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Post by burrunjor on Oct 2, 2023 22:44:20 GMT
(well, save rushy who's getting engaged to Davies next week ) LOL I'm not blind to various issues with the RTD era - not least of which is the whole Eccleston drama. That's second only to how Colin was treated. But I appreciate that he knows exactly what he wants his version of the show to be, and has a keen focus on continuity and character growth. The only time I got an impression that Moffat knew what he was doing was in series 5, and maybe parts of series 6. After that, the show was a total crap shoot. And none of it amounted to anything in the long run. Chibnall's not even worth discussing. Maybe I'd like RTD less if a more mature and sensible showrunner took over. But it was his tenure that got me into the show, and I especially like how he tackles the Doctor's ego in the 2009-10 specials. That version of the Doctor - compensating for his losses and grief by doubling down on self-pride - is one of my favourites. I wish Tennant travelled on his own for an entire season like that. LOL whilst I'm sure that Iank was just joking, you never have to justify your love for the RTD era here. All opinions are welcome, I just wish more people would join, honestly. I would really love it if Claudia Boleyn joined. I actually DO agree with that assessment of RTD meanwhile. His era is clearly more thought out. The cult of Skaro arc actually goes somewhere and lots of different threads from the severed hand, to Mr Cooper are all woven together neatly. Moff meanwhile, yes I agree had 0 idea where he was going with the SILENCE WILL FALL. In season 5 the Silence are clearly meant to be a malevolent entity that wants to destroy the multiverse, and uses the TARDIS to do it. However Moff clearly had no idea what it was, and later had to make it up on the fly, and clearly either forgot or didn't care and came up with that stupid explanation that they were priests who blew up the TARDIS to stop a war on a small planet. So in order to stop a small war, they did something that destroyed every universe? Also how does blowing up a type 40 TARDIS destroy every universe? Again before it felt as though the Silence had manipulated it in some way, but no now that's just a side effect. FFS how did the Time Lords ever crash test type 40s? Still Moffat did do some things better than RTD, namely casting and writing the Doctor, (though even then like RTD he injected too much of his own persona in there. BIG SEXY WOMAN!) |
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Post by iank on Oct 2, 2023 22:47:44 GMT
The soundtrack to a lot of Toymaker alone is nails-down-a-blackboard. The George and Margaret stuff alone is teeth-grindingly shrill and unfunny.
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Post by burrunjor on Oct 2, 2023 22:56:23 GMT
The soundtrack to a lot of Toymaker alone is nails-down-a-blackboard. The George and Margaret stuff alone is teeth-grindingly shrill and unfunny. Only bit I remember and liked is the little prick they are playing the game withs death. I love the way he is all smug running around going "I've won," Followed by an explosion LOL. That bit is great, everything else however is fairly dull. I do like borderline supernatural foes in DW and I appreciate the Toymaker was the first real attempt to do that, but honestly the Intelligence, the vampires, the Mind Robber, the Mara were all better attempts. (Indeed the Mara and the vampires are other villains that have more potential for a rematch.) |
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Post by Spark Doll King on Oct 3, 2023 12:14:31 GMT
I've already voice my dislike for what I think their doing with the Toymaker. He's just going to be Loki 2.0. Just like how the Master become the Joker.
We were never going to see a fully realised version of the Toymaker's premise in nuwho.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2023 12:20:05 GMT
I like the Cestial Toymaker story quite a bit. I listened to it a few months back and thought it was very imaginative and fun. Even Ian Levine rates it as one of his favourite stories. It's one of those stories that needs to be seen to truly appreciate it. The first three episodes are very visual driven which is unfortunate since they're all missing.
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Post by burrunjor on Oct 3, 2023 13:07:23 GMT
I like the Cestial Toymaker story quite a bit. I listened to it a few months back and thought it was very imaginative and fun. Even Ian Levine rates it as one of his favourite stories. It's one of those stories that needs to be seen to truly appreciate it. The first three episodes are very visual driven which is unfortunate since they're all missing. I think Ian Levine's peak period of DW is season 3. He goes on about it in every interview and his other two favourites come from that time. I will say despite my dislike of Toymaker, I do think season 3 sadly represents the most intriguing lost period, as for me it truly is when the Doctor becomes the Doctor if that makes sense. Everyone says Hartnell wasn't like the later Doctors, but that's only because his last season where we see the culmination of his story arc is lost to future audiences. |
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Post by iank on Oct 3, 2023 20:33:07 GMT
Based on the representations I've seen, season 3 doesn't seem all that to me tbh.
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) love to bash New Poo (and rightly so) but let's at least save it for when it's actually earned it. 
