Post by burrunjor on Aug 22, 2023 10:05:41 GMT
I know, I know, old subject. How very 2018 of me to go on about SJW DW fans LOL. Still obviously cancel culture is still a very big problem that affects DW fandom. Lots of people from James Dreyfus to Gareth Roberts have had their careers torpedoed by it.
Now unlike Gina Carano, who was unfairly slandered as a bigot (and actually stood up for LGBT rights when it wasn't as trendy to do so), Gareth Roberts does seem to have some genuine issues with trans people. Speaking as someone who is desperately in love with a trans person, the last thing I want is for them to be persecuted. However at the end of the day you can't ban everyone who has bigoted views. I mean look at William Hartnell. Would it have been right to fire him from DW because of his views? As long as you aren't harming anyone on set personally, then there is no excuse for cancel culture (which is why Barrowman's being cancelled isn't the same as Roberts as that was something he actually did on set, though that said, even then he was encouraged which we'll get too later.)
Also bare in mind that firing Roberts and making him this big martyr just brings more attention to his views, forces him to really focus on them and double down on them for his sake, and leads to more backlash against trans people, as it portrays what is still a vulnerable minority as a big oppressive force that people who care about free speech have to rally against.
Still what makes it even worse is that there are others in DW fandom who have done far more bigoted and outright abusive things to people, who are allowed to carry on no problems asked. Roberts to me is an old tribal gay man from the 80s who thinks so and so don't count as gays because they didn't go through this and that. IE like Graham Chapman who famously wanted to punch out David Bowie for not being a proper gay. Same way Hartnell was an old fashioned guy from the early 20th century. Not surprising both of them would cling to these outdated views. The following people however? The shit they've done is beyond the standards of the time.
1/ Benjamin Cook:
Leaving aside his extremely abusive comments to Who fans on twitter. Bendy Cock's treatment of my good friend Claudia Boleyn is utterly unacceptable. Claudia was hired to be part of the new time team. A move which was controversial among some fans due to her and others in the team's political opinions. Bendy Cock however spat in their faces, rather than try and address those criticisms in a fair way, he went HAHAHA GLAD TO GET RID OF THE SEXIST DINOSAURS.
This made it even more hilarious and scummy when the creep tried to censor Claudia for wanting to talk about sexism in the Moffat era. Clearly Bendy Cock thought she was going to bend the knee and only comment on Classic Who being sexist for having screaming companions. When she wanted to talk about Matt slapping his companion on the arse, Rory looking up Amy's skirt, Matt miming an erection at a hot lesbian etc. Bendy Cock went to really scummy lengths to get rid of her. He ghosted her for weeks, then he told her she had been fired because her mental health problems made her a wild card, and he tried to manipulate those problems when she was vulnerable by telling her to get rid of all her old content online, or else the daily mail would come after her.
Here are Claudia's own words. (This is from an article she wrote, NOT a pm to me which obvs I wouldn't reveal.) I want to say that I have had disagreements with Claudia myself, despite our friendship over some of her complaints against the Moffat era. I've always seen it as more Moffat being stuck in a 90s sitcom mode, where men are sex obsessed losers and women are wise, annoying, smug Mary Sues. Still unlike Bendy Cock I have always argued it with her, and NEVER resorted to this scummy behaviour.
My experience on the Time Team, although enjoyable while it lasted, began to go sour as I found myself repeatedly given taps on the wrist for comments about the sexism in Steven Moffat’s work. My continuing instance that as a woman I had a right to be vocal, and even angry about this, without being restricted by the men around me, was something that became something of a battle, and ultimately led to me being blacklisted from the team without my knowledge. Initially, (after considerable radio silence), I was informed this exclusion was due to my mental health issues, something with alarmed me for entirely different reasons. Quite clearly, this was not the appropriate or adequate response to a person with mental illness, and ableism is not befitting of the magazine, nor condoned by it. When I put this to Ben, the real reason quickly came to light. It was indeed my refusal to stop talking about the sexism in previous eras of the show that was making me rather too much of a wildcard. In fact, I was even accused of ‘putting people in danger’ by refusing to back down on this particular issue, not to mention informed that I needed to pipe down or else the dreaded Daily Mail were going to target me. Here lies the problem. Instead of supporting a woman against this, it was far easier to put pressure on me to be silent.
I was informed that Steven Moffat was an important man in terms of the magazine, and that although speaking truth to power was apparently supported, it wasn’t when calling out particular men. Sadly, I was unsurprised by this reaction, which included describing me as ‘slagging off the production team’ and ‘publicly sh*tting on Steven Moffat’. Presumably the more palatable thing to do was make such criticisms in private, where nobody might hear me, and where the delusional ideal of total equality in fandom and the show could continue. Certainly I was hearing these same criticisms from certain individuals privately, and actually some I found distasteful, but there was an acceptable fandom face we clearly had to put on. Yes, we all agreed the sexism was bad, but heaven forfend we come out and say so. In fact, when I explained that I could not possibly censor myself to be more palatable, I was informed that ‘representing the show with dignity, diplomacy, and class shouldn’t be an imposition’ which rather speaks for itself.
It is important for me to note that in spite of this, it was a great privilege to be in the feature, and that the editor, Marcus Hearn was unaware of this, and when made aware, treated me with admirable respect. I cannot say if Doctor Who Magazine itself is at fault here, or if the blame lies with those in charge of individual features, but what it does confirm is that uncomfortable bias we still have in a society, a desire to protect the powerful. A fear of being dismissed for expressing discomfort. And I am not the only person to have experienced such an incident within this particular fandom.
When criticism is perceived as a personal attack, as ‘classless’ or lacking in ‘dignity’ this leaves women and minorities in a very sticky situation indeed. It is of course the white men of fandom who are allowed to determine what constitutes valid critique, and what they believe is simply taking things too far and making a scene. My opinions about said sexism were described as ‘mean spirited’, which of course implies that keeping quiet is what makes a minority ‘nice’ and valuable. We have heard these attitudes time and time again. The oppressed and marginalised must be dignified, which means don’t rock the boat, and those in power can in turn reward them for this, while retaining a progressive exterior. Too many of us hear these same complaints daily, being told that it is cruel to point out what is our own dehumanisation.
PS when I brought this up to him later he went f*cking mental and flew into a rage and blocked me. In the end whilst I may have my differences with Claudia at one point and have been a bit of a git myself at certain points, I've never used someone's mental health to try and silence them. Hell I've never tried to silence someone for wanting to talk about sexism in DW fandom. In the end the only one trying to silence women in fandom, was the head of DWM. (Also it shows what a coward he is. Bendy Cock will happily reign down abuse against fans like us on social media, but when it comes to tackling an actual right wing institution like the Daily Mail, he is terrified of taking them on? Why?)
2/ Jon Culshaw:
He is brought in to impersonate every character whose actor has died. Personally I don't see why? Honestly Tom Baker aside, none of his DW impressions are any good. Even his Tom one is a bit limited as it is so ott it can only really be used for comedy bits. Anyway Culshaw used to do impression shows that mocked famous vulnerable women in pretty misogynistic ways. From calling Madonna an old whore, to making fun of Kate Moss's anorexia. However of interest is a sketch he did about Billie Piper herself back in the early 2000s before she was in DW.
It mocks her marriage to Chris Evans. Basically she and Chris are naked in bed and are sober and she notices he's a sad old fart and he notices she's a stupid, jumped up, gold digging whore, so they both get smashed again. BTW Billie Piper deliberately took nothing from Evans when she divorced him and they are still on great terms (unlike her and Laurence Fox.)
Now fair enough Culshaw didn't write it, but he still performed it and many other abusive sketches, and has never apologised, so you'd think that he would at least be in a bit of hot water about that, but no.
Again old axe to grind for me, but look at this sketch he did about Amy Winehouse back in the 00s.
3/ Neil Patrick Harris
I won't spend too much time on this as you all must have seen me go on about it before, but yeah he famously made a cake to look like Amy Winehouse's rotting corpse just a few weeks after she died. I won't post a picture of it as it is absolutely revolting, but still this is extra scummy because of the misogynistic treatment Amy got from the media at the time, which honestly makes the worst NMD's treatment of Jodie look like a boy playfully teasing a girl he fancies.
4/ Russell T Davies
The big cheese himself has done some really shitty and scummy things over his time with DW. He has routinely made fun of fat people in the show, with the worst being the Abzorbaloff that is basically 45 mins of going on about "Ian Levine is a big fat ugly freak ahahahahahaha" He also regularly made abusive and dated comments about ming mongs and even encouraged his fans to use the term over and over again. Then there is his encouraging John Barrowman to walk around with his dick out. One extra said that when she wanted to complain about Barrowman, she was told "he's the talent" from above.
No one can say RTD didn't create that atmosphere, or at least wasn't aware of it. FFS in the ballad of Julie and Russell video, they openly laugh about Barrowman getting his dick out! On top of all this however when the backlash against Barrowman began, he and the others rather than own up to their part in it, left him out to dry. Then there is Eccelston who also said he felt the extras were badly treated and who was then blacklisted for leaving.
See here.
www.theguardian.com/culture/2018/mar/11/christopher-eccleston-macbeths-very-insecure-about-his-masculinity-i-am-most-men-are
Honestly this is Joss Whedon to Charisma Carpenter levels of crappiness.
Then there is his also recent telling fans to f*ck off, for raising valid complaints. (One such fan was really upset by it, having looked up to RTD before hand.)
Here's also him showing the same level of scorn to Ian Levine back in 2006.
You have to ask why these guys haven't been subject to the same level of scrutiny that Gareth Roberts has? They've at various points, fired a woman for her mental health problems, and tried to prey on them to manipulate her into deleting comments that were critical of their mates, starred in misogynistic sketches about actresses linked with the show, mocked the recently deceased, encouraged sexually deviant behaviour on set from the leading man and joked about it, insulted other minorities or vulnerable groups like the overweight, bullied fans both in the show and in press conferences and finally pushed a lead actor to leave and then blacklisted him!
Where are all of these fans who did a "I WANT TO SPEAK TO THE MANAGER!" about Gareth Roberts? The wankers who refused to have their stories published in anything Roberts did? All these macho fans on Gallifrey Reddit who go on about "ohh I would have loved to have seen Capaldi go all Malcolm Tucker on Gareth Roberts."
It's crickets from all of them about these bigger assholes. Again it's clearly because a lot of these awful SJW fans are just networkers like Mr Tardis who want to get ahead, and throwing some people under the bus looks good, but not the untouchables like NPH, RTD or Bendy Cock. More elitism in DW, but at least this list will stop them from ever acting holier than thou with us.
Now unlike Gina Carano, who was unfairly slandered as a bigot (and actually stood up for LGBT rights when it wasn't as trendy to do so), Gareth Roberts does seem to have some genuine issues with trans people. Speaking as someone who is desperately in love with a trans person, the last thing I want is for them to be persecuted. However at the end of the day you can't ban everyone who has bigoted views. I mean look at William Hartnell. Would it have been right to fire him from DW because of his views? As long as you aren't harming anyone on set personally, then there is no excuse for cancel culture (which is why Barrowman's being cancelled isn't the same as Roberts as that was something he actually did on set, though that said, even then he was encouraged which we'll get too later.)
Also bare in mind that firing Roberts and making him this big martyr just brings more attention to his views, forces him to really focus on them and double down on them for his sake, and leads to more backlash against trans people, as it portrays what is still a vulnerable minority as a big oppressive force that people who care about free speech have to rally against.
Still what makes it even worse is that there are others in DW fandom who have done far more bigoted and outright abusive things to people, who are allowed to carry on no problems asked. Roberts to me is an old tribal gay man from the 80s who thinks so and so don't count as gays because they didn't go through this and that. IE like Graham Chapman who famously wanted to punch out David Bowie for not being a proper gay. Same way Hartnell was an old fashioned guy from the early 20th century. Not surprising both of them would cling to these outdated views. The following people however? The shit they've done is beyond the standards of the time.
1/ Benjamin Cook:
Leaving aside his extremely abusive comments to Who fans on twitter. Bendy Cock's treatment of my good friend Claudia Boleyn is utterly unacceptable. Claudia was hired to be part of the new time team. A move which was controversial among some fans due to her and others in the team's political opinions. Bendy Cock however spat in their faces, rather than try and address those criticisms in a fair way, he went HAHAHA GLAD TO GET RID OF THE SEXIST DINOSAURS.
This made it even more hilarious and scummy when the creep tried to censor Claudia for wanting to talk about sexism in the Moffat era. Clearly Bendy Cock thought she was going to bend the knee and only comment on Classic Who being sexist for having screaming companions. When she wanted to talk about Matt slapping his companion on the arse, Rory looking up Amy's skirt, Matt miming an erection at a hot lesbian etc. Bendy Cock went to really scummy lengths to get rid of her. He ghosted her for weeks, then he told her she had been fired because her mental health problems made her a wild card, and he tried to manipulate those problems when she was vulnerable by telling her to get rid of all her old content online, or else the daily mail would come after her.
Here are Claudia's own words. (This is from an article she wrote, NOT a pm to me which obvs I wouldn't reveal.) I want to say that I have had disagreements with Claudia myself, despite our friendship over some of her complaints against the Moffat era. I've always seen it as more Moffat being stuck in a 90s sitcom mode, where men are sex obsessed losers and women are wise, annoying, smug Mary Sues. Still unlike Bendy Cock I have always argued it with her, and NEVER resorted to this scummy behaviour.
My experience on the Time Team, although enjoyable while it lasted, began to go sour as I found myself repeatedly given taps on the wrist for comments about the sexism in Steven Moffat’s work. My continuing instance that as a woman I had a right to be vocal, and even angry about this, without being restricted by the men around me, was something that became something of a battle, and ultimately led to me being blacklisted from the team without my knowledge. Initially, (after considerable radio silence), I was informed this exclusion was due to my mental health issues, something with alarmed me for entirely different reasons. Quite clearly, this was not the appropriate or adequate response to a person with mental illness, and ableism is not befitting of the magazine, nor condoned by it. When I put this to Ben, the real reason quickly came to light. It was indeed my refusal to stop talking about the sexism in previous eras of the show that was making me rather too much of a wildcard. In fact, I was even accused of ‘putting people in danger’ by refusing to back down on this particular issue, not to mention informed that I needed to pipe down or else the dreaded Daily Mail were going to target me. Here lies the problem. Instead of supporting a woman against this, it was far easier to put pressure on me to be silent.
I was informed that Steven Moffat was an important man in terms of the magazine, and that although speaking truth to power was apparently supported, it wasn’t when calling out particular men. Sadly, I was unsurprised by this reaction, which included describing me as ‘slagging off the production team’ and ‘publicly sh*tting on Steven Moffat’. Presumably the more palatable thing to do was make such criticisms in private, where nobody might hear me, and where the delusional ideal of total equality in fandom and the show could continue. Certainly I was hearing these same criticisms from certain individuals privately, and actually some I found distasteful, but there was an acceptable fandom face we clearly had to put on. Yes, we all agreed the sexism was bad, but heaven forfend we come out and say so. In fact, when I explained that I could not possibly censor myself to be more palatable, I was informed that ‘representing the show with dignity, diplomacy, and class shouldn’t be an imposition’ which rather speaks for itself.
It is important for me to note that in spite of this, it was a great privilege to be in the feature, and that the editor, Marcus Hearn was unaware of this, and when made aware, treated me with admirable respect. I cannot say if Doctor Who Magazine itself is at fault here, or if the blame lies with those in charge of individual features, but what it does confirm is that uncomfortable bias we still have in a society, a desire to protect the powerful. A fear of being dismissed for expressing discomfort. And I am not the only person to have experienced such an incident within this particular fandom.
When criticism is perceived as a personal attack, as ‘classless’ or lacking in ‘dignity’ this leaves women and minorities in a very sticky situation indeed. It is of course the white men of fandom who are allowed to determine what constitutes valid critique, and what they believe is simply taking things too far and making a scene. My opinions about said sexism were described as ‘mean spirited’, which of course implies that keeping quiet is what makes a minority ‘nice’ and valuable. We have heard these attitudes time and time again. The oppressed and marginalised must be dignified, which means don’t rock the boat, and those in power can in turn reward them for this, while retaining a progressive exterior. Too many of us hear these same complaints daily, being told that it is cruel to point out what is our own dehumanisation.
PS when I brought this up to him later he went f*cking mental and flew into a rage and blocked me. In the end whilst I may have my differences with Claudia at one point and have been a bit of a git myself at certain points, I've never used someone's mental health to try and silence them. Hell I've never tried to silence someone for wanting to talk about sexism in DW fandom. In the end the only one trying to silence women in fandom, was the head of DWM. (Also it shows what a coward he is. Bendy Cock will happily reign down abuse against fans like us on social media, but when it comes to tackling an actual right wing institution like the Daily Mail, he is terrified of taking them on? Why?)
2/ Jon Culshaw:
He is brought in to impersonate every character whose actor has died. Personally I don't see why? Honestly Tom Baker aside, none of his DW impressions are any good. Even his Tom one is a bit limited as it is so ott it can only really be used for comedy bits. Anyway Culshaw used to do impression shows that mocked famous vulnerable women in pretty misogynistic ways. From calling Madonna an old whore, to making fun of Kate Moss's anorexia. However of interest is a sketch he did about Billie Piper herself back in the early 2000s before she was in DW.
It mocks her marriage to Chris Evans. Basically she and Chris are naked in bed and are sober and she notices he's a sad old fart and he notices she's a stupid, jumped up, gold digging whore, so they both get smashed again. BTW Billie Piper deliberately took nothing from Evans when she divorced him and they are still on great terms (unlike her and Laurence Fox.)
Now fair enough Culshaw didn't write it, but he still performed it and many other abusive sketches, and has never apologised, so you'd think that he would at least be in a bit of hot water about that, but no.
Again old axe to grind for me, but look at this sketch he did about Amy Winehouse back in the 00s.
3/ Neil Patrick Harris
I won't spend too much time on this as you all must have seen me go on about it before, but yeah he famously made a cake to look like Amy Winehouse's rotting corpse just a few weeks after she died. I won't post a picture of it as it is absolutely revolting, but still this is extra scummy because of the misogynistic treatment Amy got from the media at the time, which honestly makes the worst NMD's treatment of Jodie look like a boy playfully teasing a girl he fancies.
4/ Russell T Davies
The big cheese himself has done some really shitty and scummy things over his time with DW. He has routinely made fun of fat people in the show, with the worst being the Abzorbaloff that is basically 45 mins of going on about "Ian Levine is a big fat ugly freak ahahahahahaha" He also regularly made abusive and dated comments about ming mongs and even encouraged his fans to use the term over and over again. Then there is his encouraging John Barrowman to walk around with his dick out. One extra said that when she wanted to complain about Barrowman, she was told "he's the talent" from above.
No one can say RTD didn't create that atmosphere, or at least wasn't aware of it. FFS in the ballad of Julie and Russell video, they openly laugh about Barrowman getting his dick out! On top of all this however when the backlash against Barrowman began, he and the others rather than own up to their part in it, left him out to dry. Then there is Eccelston who also said he felt the extras were badly treated and who was then blacklisted for leaving.
See here.
www.theguardian.com/culture/2018/mar/11/christopher-eccleston-macbeths-very-insecure-about-his-masculinity-i-am-most-men-are
Honestly this is Joss Whedon to Charisma Carpenter levels of crappiness.
Then there is his also recent telling fans to f*ck off, for raising valid complaints. (One such fan was really upset by it, having looked up to RTD before hand.)
Here's also him showing the same level of scorn to Ian Levine back in 2006.
You have to ask why these guys haven't been subject to the same level of scrutiny that Gareth Roberts has? They've at various points, fired a woman for her mental health problems, and tried to prey on them to manipulate her into deleting comments that were critical of their mates, starred in misogynistic sketches about actresses linked with the show, mocked the recently deceased, encouraged sexually deviant behaviour on set from the leading man and joked about it, insulted other minorities or vulnerable groups like the overweight, bullied fans both in the show and in press conferences and finally pushed a lead actor to leave and then blacklisted him!
Where are all of these fans who did a "I WANT TO SPEAK TO THE MANAGER!" about Gareth Roberts? The wankers who refused to have their stories published in anything Roberts did? All these macho fans on Gallifrey Reddit who go on about "ohh I would have loved to have seen Capaldi go all Malcolm Tucker on Gareth Roberts."
It's crickets from all of them about these bigger assholes. Again it's clearly because a lot of these awful SJW fans are just networkers like Mr Tardis who want to get ahead, and throwing some people under the bus looks good, but not the untouchables like NPH, RTD or Bendy Cock. More elitism in DW, but at least this list will stop them from ever acting holier than thou with us.
