Ranking the complete Troughton serials

[Deleted]

1. The War Games
2. Tomb of the Cybermen
3. The Mind Robber
4. The Krotons
5. The Dominators
6. Enemy of the World
7. Seeds of Death

The first three are classics. I do like The Krotons as well despite being a bit shoddy. The others range from average to dull.

[iank]

That is just the saddest list ever.

[Deleted]

It is a bit depressing. Still, if I had made this list ten years ago there would only be six serials instead of seven. Hopefully in another ten years the list will increase again.

[Bernard Marx]

1) The War Games.
2) The Mind Robber.
3) The Tomb of the Cybermen.
4) The Enemy of the World.
5) The Seeds of Death.
6) The Krotons.
7) The Dominators.

It's only after seeing this thread that I realised *just* how little of this era actually exists. What a crying shame. Might even be my favourite Doctor too. 

[burrunjor]

1/The Mind Robber 10/10

Doctor Who at its imaginative best. The first episode is one of the most genuinely frightening and atmospheric episodes of any sci fi show.

2/The War Games 10/10

Too much in one sitting, but it's one of the best adventure stories of all time and it's just a shame the Time Lords were never as impactful again.

3/The Seeds of Death 8/10

Good old fashioned Dan Daresque fun. The Quizling character's unexpected redemption is also a nice twist and the Ice Lord in this story is one of the most memorable monster villains of the show.

4/Tomb of the Cybermen 7/10

Sadly hasn't aged that well. I used to rate it highly, but now that I'm older I can see a lot of problems with it. It's not like say Genesis or Remembrance or Seeds of Doom, or Time Warrior or Deadly Assassin, or Caves of Androzani all of which are pretty flawless television, barring maybe the odd production f*ck up. Tomb has a lot against it from the stupidity of the villains plan, to the laughable Cybermats, to the hilariously shit American accents, to the dated stereotypes. It's not quite the classic people hail it as, but it is still atmospheric in places, the Cybermen are at their best, being emotionless zombies rather than generic conquerors, the dynamics with the Doctor and his companions are at both moving and funny, and it's if nothing else still an enjoyable story. 

5/ The Enemy of the World 6/10

Never got the hype for this one? Troughton is brilliant in the double role, but overall it's kind of slow and plodding, at least compared to the above serials. 

6/ The Dominators 5/10

Sorry but I think this one is rather dull and unmemorable. It's not bad per say, but kind of bland. 

7/ The Krotons 5/10

Same with the Dominators, though I think the monsters do look marginally better. 

[burrunjor]

Oct 21, 2022 9:56:07 GMT Bernard Marx said:

1) The War Games.
2) The Mind Robber.
3) The Tomb of the Cybermen.
4) The Enemy of the World.
5) The Seeds of Death.
6) The Krotons.
7) The Dominators.

It's only after seeing this thread that I realised *just* how little of this era actually exists. What a crying shame. Might even be my favourite Doctor too. 

He seems to be more popular with younger audiences surprisingly given how far back he is. 

I've also noticed that women classic era fans seem to like Patrick Troughton the best. I don't know why. Not saying anything against him of course LOL, I just wonder why he seems to win round these two demographics. I've heard some female fans say that he reminds them of their friendly old uncle the most. I guess of all the Doctors he does kind of have that quality about him. 

My faves meanwhile would be Jon Pertwee, Tom Baker and William Hartnell in that order, with the rest of the classic era Doctors I'd rank equally, along with Matt Smith. 

I used to rank Matt as my third fave, but whilst his performance is excellent, he does suffer from too many Moffatisms. Of course they are all ranked under Jodie who truly defined the character better than anyone else.   

[Deleted]

Troughton is the most likeable incarnation of the character. I find it hard not to love him. You're right, The War Games Time Lords are much better than the ones seen in the 70s and 80s. By the time of Invasion of Time Gallifrey had become the most boring planet in the history of the show.

As for Tomb, I understand the issues some have with it. I think it's an instance of people hyping it up so much you expect it to be completely flawless. I do think it's flawed but it's also very atmospheric and fun. Toberman is a problem, but people forget he actually helps save the day and sacrifices himself in a heroic way at the end. The American characters are the absolute worst, though. Their casual sexism towards Victoria is really annoying. I forgive Jamie for it because he's from the 1700s and it's obvious he does actually respect and care about the women he's around, but these guys are supposed to be from the future and they just treat Victoria like an idiot. I love the scenes where she snaps back at Hopper. Usually the sexism of the Troughton era is fought by strong female characters like Isobel in the Invasion when she defies the Brigadier or when Anne smartly responds to Captain Knight's "what's a nice girl like you doing here" comment in Web. Polly never really cared about making the coffee though in her stories which surprises me considering she's quite spunky and modern.

[Deleted]

I wouldn't say "Genesis" is flawless television. It lacks the tension of The War Games, the visual delights of Remembrance and a really strong ending like Earthshock. Genesis is a perennial favourite of bandwagoners. How people consider it to be a better story than Talons is beyond me.

[burrunjor]

Oct 21, 2022 14:48:21 GMT @kengrubshaw said:

I wouldn't say "Genesis" is flawless television. It lacks the tension of The War Games, the visual delights of Remembrance and a really strong ending like Earthshock. Genesis is a perennial favourite of bandwagoners. How people consider it to be a better story than Talons is beyond me.

I vastly prefer Genesis to Talons. Sorry and I'm not just being a bitch LOL, but Talons is far more of a bandwagoner story. It gets rated by all the Fitzroy types because they think that it shows DW could be grown up telly to their snobby friends at the BBC because of its Victorian setting and dialogue, which can make it look like a period drama. However it IS racist, okay yes standards of the time and all that, but still it IS dated in a way 99 percent of classic who isn't. It also does have some of the most laughable effects, which are utterly pointless like the giant rat and it really is a four parter stretched across six. The story does not need to be that long. The mystery about Greel is all explained away within one episode and the Doctor could easily resolve it much more quickly, they just needed to pad it out a bit more.

Genesis meanwhile justifies its larger length by having a more in depth world to explore, a larger cast of characters on the Kaleds and Thals side, many of whom don't make it to the end like Ronson, as well as all the power struggles within Kaled society and Thal society too, and the history of their war with each other. All of this actually leaves the viewer wanting more after six episodes and the proof of that is the mountain of spin off material that has been created to fill in the gaps. 

Genesis also features powerful and interesting metaphors for racial hatred and fascism, but in a way that is cleverly woven into the story so it's not too preachy. It also doesn't go down the usual route either of just saying "racism is bad." That a lot of genre shows do. We all know that. Instead it follows other avenues, like showing us how people like Davros can rise because of the ineffectiveness of those around them, and also because people like him will go to any low, stab anyone in the back for their own ends. Davros wins not so much because he is smarter than everybody else, but because no one, even Nyder expects him to go that far. 

It also shows you how history is often whitewashed, IE the Thals who painted themselves as noble warriors in the first Dalek story are shown to be anything but here, and unlike a lot of other Dalek stories, we see how it's never just as black and white as people paint it with there being sympathetic characters on the Kaled side, and villains on the Thals. Also the Doctors speech is thought provoking and the proof of that is that 50 years on, people still debate whether he did the right thing.

The Daleks themselves are at their best in pretty much everyway. The props are excellent, but not too spruced up to the point where they look shiny and attractive like later. They still look like dull war machines. Also their voices are at their best, with the rasping harsh quality, they are genuinely menacing in terms of how powerful they are, and their characterisation of being so inhuman they literally can't conceive pity demonstrates how alien and malevolent they are better than anything else. 

Davros is also a brilliant character too.  Michael Wisher's performance is pitch perfect the way he hams it up when he has too, but also underplays it for other moments and his interactions with Tom are some of the best moments in the series. Also I like the way that in the end, you can almost feel some sympathy for Davros. As wicked as he is, not only does he realise the monster he has created, but his final actions are ironically to beg the Daleks to show mercy to those who have shown genuine loyalty to him. How many genre films and tv shows depict the big bad, evil emperor showing compassion at the end? It's a great twist. 

In terms of its production values, well again it's brilliantly directed (it wisely shoots the Daleks from below to make them seem imposing.) The music is brilliant, the sets are dreary, but not boring as they show you how barren the world has become. 

Really it IS perfect except for one bit with a giant clam, though even then that is nowhere near as laughable as the Rat. 

Genesis isn't a story that won it's reputation through bandwagoners either. It was actually among the public! They all loved it and it was repeated again and again for that reason. If anything it's popularity is probably something that annoys the bandwagoners, as it is written by Terry Nation (who they largely now consider to be a third rate hack.) And it is on the surface, more of a Dan Dare type of story about space monsters and escaping up a ventilation shaft, which are the very things New Who is incapable of doing and often sneers at fans for wanting to have back. 

[rushy]

1. The War Games
2. The Enemy of the World
3. The Mind Robber
4. The Seeds of Death
5. Tomb of the Cybermen
6. The Dominators
7. The Krotons

[Deleted]

Oct 21, 2022 15:38:30 GMT burrunjor said:

Oct 21, 2022 14:48:21 GMT @kengrubshaw said:

I wouldn't say "Genesis" is flawless television. It lacks the tension of The War Games, the visual delights of Remembrance and a really strong ending like Earthshock. Genesis is a perennial favourite of bandwagoners. How people consider it to be a better story than Talons is beyond me.

I vastly prefer Genesis to Talons. Sorry and I'm not just being a bitch LOL, but Talons is far more of a bandwagoner story. It gets rated by all the Fitzroy types because they think that it shows DW could be grown up telly to their snobby friends at the BBC because of its Victorian setting and dialogue, which can make it look like a period drama. However it IS racist, okay yes standards of the time and all that, but still it IS dated in a way 99 percent of classic who isn't. It also does have some of the most laughable effects, which are utterly pointless like the giant rat and it really is a four parter stretched across six. The story does not need to be that long. The mystery about Greel is all explained away within one episode and the Doctor could easily resolve it much more quickly, they just needed to pad it out a bit more.

Genesis meanwhile justifies its larger length by having a more in depth world to explore, a larger cast of characters on the Kaleds and Thals side, many of whom don't make it to the end like Ronson, as well as all the power struggles within Kaled society and Thal society too, and the history of their war with each other. All of this actually leaves the viewer wanting more after six episodes and the proof of that is the mountain of spin off material that has been created to fill in the gaps. 

Genesis also features powerful and interesting metaphors for racial hatred and fascism, but in a way that is cleverly woven into the story so it's not too preachy. It also doesn't go down the usual route either of just saying "racism is bad." That a lot of genre shows do. We all know that. Instead it follows other avenues, like showing us how people like Davros can rise because of the ineffectiveness of those around them, and also because people like him will go to any low, stab anyone in the back for their own ends. Davros wins not so much because he is smarter than everybody else, but because no one, even Nyder expects him to go that far. 

It also shows you how history is often whitewashed, IE the Thals who painted themselves as noble warriors in the first Dalek story are shown to be anything but here, and unlike a lot of other Dalek stories, we see how it's never just as black and white as people paint it with there being sympathetic characters on the Kaled side, and villains on the Thals. Also the Doctors speech is thought provoking and the proof of that is that 50 years on, people still debate whether he did the right thing.

The Daleks themselves are at their best in pretty much everyway. The props are excellent, but not too spruced up to the point where they look shiny and attractive like later. They still look like dull war machines. Also their voices are at their best, with the rasping harsh quality, they are genuinely menacing in terms of how powerful they are, and their characterisation of being so inhuman they literally can't conceive pity demonstrates how alien and malevolent they are better than anything else. 

Davros is also a brilliant character too.  Michael Wisher's performance is pitch perfect the way he hams it up when he has too, but also underplays it for other moments and his interactions with Tom are some of the best moments in the series. Also I like the way that in the end, you can almost feel some sympathy for Davros. As wicked as he is, not only does he realise the monster he has created, but his final actions are ironically to beg the Daleks to show mercy to those who have shown genuine loyalty to him. How many genre films and tv shows depict the big bad, evil emperor showing compassion at the end? It's a great twist. 

In terms of its production values, well again it's brilliantly directed (it wisely shoots the Daleks from below to make them seem imposing.) The music is brilliant, the sets are dreary, but not boring as they show you how barren the world has become. 

Really it IS perfect except for one bit with a giant clam, though even then that is nowhere near as laughable as the Rat. 

Genesis isn't a story that won it's reputation through bandwagoners either. It was actually among the public! They all loved it and it was repeated again and again for that reason. If anything it's popularity is probably something that annoys the bandwagoners, as it is written by Terry Nation (who they largely now consider to be a third rate hack.) And it is on the surface, more of a Dan Dare type of story about space monsters and escaping up a ventilation shaft, which are the very things New Who is incapable of doing and often sneers at fans for wanting to have back. 

I disagree, but I respect your views. I watched Talons last night actually and I just love it. I don't like Hinchcliffe's era usually, but Robots and Talons are real highpoints of the show. The latter is one of the most polished productions in the show's history. It looks unbelievable and it's one of the few stories that really makes me believe the setting is real. Leela is awesome too and easily beats Sarah-Jane and Harry. Tom is at his best here and he's more like the Williams era Doctor I love rather than the moody bastard in Pyramids. The dialouge is absolutely delightful and Jago is one of the funniest characters ever. Even the giant rat isn't all that bad. To be honest, as someone with a phobia of rats the very idea of a giant one trying to eat people is horrifc enough for me. The racism is unfortunate I agree, but I don't think the story should be ignored or skipped because of it. It's not good obviously but we've moved on and we can still look back at stories like this with fondness even with the racism.

[Spark Doll King]

1. The Mind Robber
2. Tomb of the Cybermen
3. The War Games
4. The Enemy of the World
5. The Dominators
6. The Krotons
7. The Seeds of Doom

Really puts how f*cked over Troughton was by the purge doesn't it.